Trump is just a selfless and misunderstood martyr
Like Robert Mugabe and Stalin.
41-45, M
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helenS · 36-40, F
Elessar · 26-30, M
@helenS I'd say he's the pioneer of this kind of populist right-wing cult/religion-like politics too. Unfortunately for us (and fortunately for Americans), Silvio was a lot more cunning and a much better strategist and managed to govern for over 20 years without feeling the hammer of justice too much. Trump seems to be in a much worse position already (legally) than Berlusconi ever was.
helenS · 36-40, F
@Elessar Maybe the Italian judicial system is "somewhat" biased and in favor of Berlusconi? I don't think it took the Courts a long time to prosecute a socialist leader, Mr Craxi, in the 1990s 😏
On a more serious note, I think there are hundreds of Berlusconis and Trumps in every country, and they compete with each other in an almost Darwinian way, where the fittest of them will survive, the one who is the most perfect embodiment of the sentiments of the crowd. The real problem is the alienated crowd they are trying to please.
On a more serious note, I think there are hundreds of Berlusconis and Trumps in every country, and they compete with each other in an almost Darwinian way, where the fittest of them will survive, the one who is the most perfect embodiment of the sentiments of the crowd. The real problem is the alienated crowd they are trying to please.
Elessar · 26-30, M
@helenS I may argue that the US court system may be even more (and a lot more) biased in favor of their own Berlusconis, especially when those Berlusconis can single-handly pack the highest court with politicized judges - a thing that the O.G. Italian Berlusconi could only dream about. 😅 Over here the problem wasn't really that the justice was biased in his favor, more that he knew how to use loopholes to delay his trial until evidence could no longer be used. And in a democracy with a good separation between judiciary and legislative branches, judges can't really fix said loopholes without the help of politics, which he (/his allies) still controlled.
Agreed, the real problem is people falling for these cults. How these people - who make life harder for everyone including their own supporters - still get people literally venerate them is beyond my understanding. Only (pretty cynical) explanation I have is that the average person puts the desire to see people they don't like suffering over improving their own condition, so they'll at least initially go with a mentality like: «yeah this guy will ruin my life but that's a sacrifice I'm willingly to make because it'll ruin <insert-whatever-category-here> much worse», and then they get dragged away.
Agreed, the real problem is people falling for these cults. How these people - who make life harder for everyone including their own supporters - still get people literally venerate them is beyond my understanding. Only (pretty cynical) explanation I have is that the average person puts the desire to see people they don't like suffering over improving their own condition, so they'll at least initially go with a mentality like: «yeah this guy will ruin my life but that's a sacrifice I'm willingly to make because it'll ruin <insert-whatever-category-here> much worse», and then they get dragged away.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Elessar Great insight but I do think that Trump is more authoritarian than Berlusconi. January 6th is just the most egregious example and Trump absolutely would abolish American democracy if he was allowed to. One third of Americans would go along with it.
Berlusconi had all the populist tendencies and played the part of the anti-corruption candidate in spite of being the most corrupt. He came through during the peak neo-liberal era. My understanding is that he was more protectionist and less Thatcherite than your nominal centre-left. It was Prodi who privatised the most things, right?
I think that the EU as an institution does offer some tepid defence to the far-right takeover of Europe. Whatever they claim in public, Italian politicians like Meloni and Salvini know that they can't go it alone, especially as leaving the Euro would lead to a banking collapse.
We are right to be worried though. Every few years, things move a bit further to the far right. The AFD are being normalised in Germany and similar is happening in other places. Correct me if I'm wrong but the word 'fascist' seems to have lost its stigma in Italy.
The US doesn't need a far-right party because the Republicans are mostly there anyway. I think that the Democrats are insane for letting Biden run again because a generic Dem (like Gavin Newsome) would beat Trump easily. For some reason, they insist on putting Trump against a man north of eighty who is losing it.
Berlusconi had all the populist tendencies and played the part of the anti-corruption candidate in spite of being the most corrupt. He came through during the peak neo-liberal era. My understanding is that he was more protectionist and less Thatcherite than your nominal centre-left. It was Prodi who privatised the most things, right?
I think that the EU as an institution does offer some tepid defence to the far-right takeover of Europe. Whatever they claim in public, Italian politicians like Meloni and Salvini know that they can't go it alone, especially as leaving the Euro would lead to a banking collapse.
We are right to be worried though. Every few years, things move a bit further to the far right. The AFD are being normalised in Germany and similar is happening in other places. Correct me if I'm wrong but the word 'fascist' seems to have lost its stigma in Italy.
The US doesn't need a far-right party because the Republicans are mostly there anyway. I think that the Democrats are insane for letting Biden run again because a generic Dem (like Gavin Newsome) would beat Trump easily. For some reason, they insist on putting Trump against a man north of eighty who is losing it.
Elessar · 26-30, M
@Burnley123 Sorry man I was about to reply but fell asleep yesterday night.
Silvio wasn't really a neoliberal, nor a fascist; his ideology was simply "[i]whatever gives me the most votes[/i]". As you said yourself, at the time moderate-rightwingism was peaking (but not necessarily neoliberalism, at least not here) so it would've hurt his image taking a far-right position. However, far righters had key roles in his government, even ministries: think of Fini, Bossi, La Russa (Meloni's party co-founder) and Meloni herself. Had his political career started now rather than in 1991, I wouldn't be any surprised seeing him embracing a position that would be at least as authoritarian as Trump's (heck, just look at his controversial declarations in 2022; many were saying he was going insane but probably he was just gambling on realigning himself to better fit today's RW/populist electorate). Similarly, neoliberalism did absolutely benefit him but is also extremely unpopular once it folds out (see Thatcher), so he's been intelligent enough not to get his own face associated with it. An opposition member (Prodi) or even a technocrat (Monti) were the perfect scapegoat to do the dirty work for him.
[quote]Berlusconi had all the populist tendencies and played the part of the anti-corruption candidate in spite of being the most corrupt[/quote]
To use an American neologism I think that's called «draining the swamp»? 😜
[quote]I think that the EU as an institution does offer some tepid defence to the far-right takeover of Europe. Whatever they claim in public, Italian politicians like Meloni and Salvini know that they can't go it alone, especially as leaving the Euro would lead to a banking collapse. [/quote]
Since Brexit and the aggression of Ukraine, rightwing populists in the continent have indeed abandoned the idea of leaving the union, but they're now speaking of «reforming» it, so they're equally dangerous. Reforming it like Orbàn "reformed" Hungary?
[quote]Correct me if I'm wrong but the word 'fascist' seems to have lost its stigma in Italy. [/quote]
I'm not sure about this point because neo-fascism has never had a real stigma associated with it among right-wingers, indeed see above the point of far-righters having been in Berlusconi's governments just fine for decades. I would also say that neo-fascism isn't really at its peak now here, I'd say that was either during the years of lead (1970s), when it was militant, or even if you want during Salvini's era (2015-19?); Meloni campaigned as a party of nostalgics but her government is resembling much more a continuation of Berlusconi's, than of Mussolini's, in practice.
[quote]The US doesn't need a far-right party because the Republicans are mostly there anyway[/quote]
The Republican party is indeed far more authoritarian than Meloni's, if you ask me, at least thus far. Attacks on culture, democracy, institutions and civil rights aren't anywhere as prevalent here under Meloni as they're in the US with the Republicans controlling [i]only [/i]the judiciary and several states..
[quote] I think that the Democrats are insane for letting Biden run again because a generic Dem (like Gavin Newsome) would beat Trump easily. For some reason, they insist on putting Trump against a man north of eighty who is losing it.[/quote]
That's if the goal is winning against Trump; but the US' Democrat Party is a neoliberal institution at its core, so the main goal is preserving the capitalist status quo. Winning with a more progressive candidate may be seen as a much worse outcome than losing to Trump, from the perspective of a hardcore neoliberal.
Remember that the sole reason that Biden et al. try to appease progressive is that they need the progressives' vote to win an election, not because they're progressive themselves. If America had a parliamentary system you could bet that people like Biden and people like Sanders would have nigh zero chances of being in the same party, at most they would form a coalition [b]after [/b]the vote but they certainly wouldn't run campaigns together.
That said I don't think Biden is a bad candidate personally; I had much lower expectations before seeing how he would tackle the Russian situation.
Silvio wasn't really a neoliberal, nor a fascist; his ideology was simply "[i]whatever gives me the most votes[/i]". As you said yourself, at the time moderate-rightwingism was peaking (but not necessarily neoliberalism, at least not here) so it would've hurt his image taking a far-right position. However, far righters had key roles in his government, even ministries: think of Fini, Bossi, La Russa (Meloni's party co-founder) and Meloni herself. Had his political career started now rather than in 1991, I wouldn't be any surprised seeing him embracing a position that would be at least as authoritarian as Trump's (heck, just look at his controversial declarations in 2022; many were saying he was going insane but probably he was just gambling on realigning himself to better fit today's RW/populist electorate). Similarly, neoliberalism did absolutely benefit him but is also extremely unpopular once it folds out (see Thatcher), so he's been intelligent enough not to get his own face associated with it. An opposition member (Prodi) or even a technocrat (Monti) were the perfect scapegoat to do the dirty work for him.
[quote]Berlusconi had all the populist tendencies and played the part of the anti-corruption candidate in spite of being the most corrupt[/quote]
To use an American neologism I think that's called «draining the swamp»? 😜
[quote]I think that the EU as an institution does offer some tepid defence to the far-right takeover of Europe. Whatever they claim in public, Italian politicians like Meloni and Salvini know that they can't go it alone, especially as leaving the Euro would lead to a banking collapse. [/quote]
Since Brexit and the aggression of Ukraine, rightwing populists in the continent have indeed abandoned the idea of leaving the union, but they're now speaking of «reforming» it, so they're equally dangerous. Reforming it like Orbàn "reformed" Hungary?
[quote]Correct me if I'm wrong but the word 'fascist' seems to have lost its stigma in Italy. [/quote]
I'm not sure about this point because neo-fascism has never had a real stigma associated with it among right-wingers, indeed see above the point of far-righters having been in Berlusconi's governments just fine for decades. I would also say that neo-fascism isn't really at its peak now here, I'd say that was either during the years of lead (1970s), when it was militant, or even if you want during Salvini's era (2015-19?); Meloni campaigned as a party of nostalgics but her government is resembling much more a continuation of Berlusconi's, than of Mussolini's, in practice.
[quote]The US doesn't need a far-right party because the Republicans are mostly there anyway[/quote]
The Republican party is indeed far more authoritarian than Meloni's, if you ask me, at least thus far. Attacks on culture, democracy, institutions and civil rights aren't anywhere as prevalent here under Meloni as they're in the US with the Republicans controlling [i]only [/i]the judiciary and several states..
[quote] I think that the Democrats are insane for letting Biden run again because a generic Dem (like Gavin Newsome) would beat Trump easily. For some reason, they insist on putting Trump against a man north of eighty who is losing it.[/quote]
That's if the goal is winning against Trump; but the US' Democrat Party is a neoliberal institution at its core, so the main goal is preserving the capitalist status quo. Winning with a more progressive candidate may be seen as a much worse outcome than losing to Trump, from the perspective of a hardcore neoliberal.
Remember that the sole reason that Biden et al. try to appease progressive is that they need the progressives' vote to win an election, not because they're progressive themselves. If America had a parliamentary system you could bet that people like Biden and people like Sanders would have nigh zero chances of being in the same party, at most they would form a coalition [b]after [/b]the vote but they certainly wouldn't run campaigns together.
That said I don't think Biden is a bad candidate personally; I had much lower expectations before seeing how he would tackle the Russian situation.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 [quote]Reforming it like Orbàn "reformed" Hungary?[/quote]
Yes, that is very much the danger and I've read a lot about Hungary. I don't know if Meloni has the political skill of Oban or whether the right can muster as much cohesive support as Fidez but that is the danger. No offense but the traditional instability of Italian politics will protect it for a while.
[quote]That's if the goal is winning against Trump; but the US' Democrat Party is a neoliberal institution at its core, so the main goal is preserving the capitalist status quo. Winning with a more progressive candidate may be seen as a much worse outcome than losing to Trump, from the perspective of a hardcore neoliberal.[/quote]
I do agree somewhat with this. The democrats are neoliberals and very beholden to corporate interests. However, the level of polarisation in US politics, the social liberalism of the dem base and the hatred of the right means that there is only so far they can or will go. I've actually been slightly impressed with the Biden administration for doing more than I expected but I had very low expectations. They also make some tepid attempts to regard the left as a junior coalition partner and adopt some of their policies. This would probably change if the left came close to dominating the major centre-left party (as happened in the UK).
Speaking of that, Keir Starmer and his people are worse than the Biden administration. They are busy kicking out leftists on spurious charges and copying the policies of our conservatives. They really are just brazenly cynical and pathetic. They will probably win on a low turnout and change nothing. Not because they can't but because they don't want to.
The Dems absolutely want to beat Trump. I don't think that the Democrat Party left has a decent candidate now that Bernie is too old. Mariane Williamson is the best they can come up with and she got nowhere last time. Elizabeth Warren would be backed by the left if she hadn't knifed Bernie in the last primary, but she did. The 'moderate' wing of the Democrats has a much much stronger bench so I don't think that they would be worried about losing the primary. It's more than Biden and his advisors just want to hold onto power., rather than letting anyone else have a go: Even if the successor would have the same politics, they would have different ministers and aides/.
Yes, that is very much the danger and I've read a lot about Hungary. I don't know if Meloni has the political skill of Oban or whether the right can muster as much cohesive support as Fidez but that is the danger. No offense but the traditional instability of Italian politics will protect it for a while.
[quote]That's if the goal is winning against Trump; but the US' Democrat Party is a neoliberal institution at its core, so the main goal is preserving the capitalist status quo. Winning with a more progressive candidate may be seen as a much worse outcome than losing to Trump, from the perspective of a hardcore neoliberal.[/quote]
I do agree somewhat with this. The democrats are neoliberals and very beholden to corporate interests. However, the level of polarisation in US politics, the social liberalism of the dem base and the hatred of the right means that there is only so far they can or will go. I've actually been slightly impressed with the Biden administration for doing more than I expected but I had very low expectations. They also make some tepid attempts to regard the left as a junior coalition partner and adopt some of their policies. This would probably change if the left came close to dominating the major centre-left party (as happened in the UK).
Speaking of that, Keir Starmer and his people are worse than the Biden administration. They are busy kicking out leftists on spurious charges and copying the policies of our conservatives. They really are just brazenly cynical and pathetic. They will probably win on a low turnout and change nothing. Not because they can't but because they don't want to.
The Dems absolutely want to beat Trump. I don't think that the Democrat Party left has a decent candidate now that Bernie is too old. Mariane Williamson is the best they can come up with and she got nowhere last time. Elizabeth Warren would be backed by the left if she hadn't knifed Bernie in the last primary, but she did. The 'moderate' wing of the Democrats has a much much stronger bench so I don't think that they would be worried about losing the primary. It's more than Biden and his advisors just want to hold onto power., rather than letting anyone else have a go: Even if the successor would have the same politics, they would have different ministers and aides/.