@beckyromero I have been flying the flag on my front porch with pride since forever. I have taken it down. It is a symbol of divisiveness even within the country.
Freedom and to honor the sacrifices made by the men and women who not only have preserved that freedom for us but to gain it for others who were suffering under tyranny.
@beckyromero What tyranny are you talking about? We have been bombing other countries and meddling in their internal affair since WW2. Before that, in the Mexican-American war, we took vast territories (Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, Colorado) from Mexico. Now, we have 1000 military bases all over the world and rooting to go to war with Russia and China. We have been spending ourselves into near bankruptcy maintaining the largest aggressive fighting force in the world. And you say we are doing all that to gain freedom for others suffering under tyranny?
Stand in Red Square and Tiananmen Square with a bullhorn and denounce their governments and those countries' involvement in the affairs of other nations with the same fervor as you denounce the United States.
Then, depending on which one lets you out of prison first, start writing a book about your experiences there. I'm sure I can speak for the great majority of SWers who post in the political section that we'd all look forward to reading it.
@beckyromero What tyranny and lack of freedom do you think that the rest of us are suffering from? You throw in two extreme examples (why not add a number of the Islamic countries while you're at it) but, do you honestly believe that the US has saved anybody from "tyranny"?
And please, don't even try with the WW2 BS. It took three years for the US to join that conflict and the US has been strutting around the planet ever since, cosplaying as the defenders of democracy and freedom.
Do your votes determine who will ultimately govern you? No, your "Electoral College" does. Do your women have bodily autonomy? Pretty soon none of them will. Can you read whatever books you want read? No! Can you love whomever you want to love? No! Can you live the way you want to live? No! Can you send your kids to school, safe in the knowledge that they will come home again? NO!!!!!! Can you fall ill without the fear of crippling debt? No! Can you gain a higher education without consigning yourselves to a lifetime of debt? No!
We, in the civilised world, have all of that and more. If what we have is tyranny, you guys need to get yourselves dictionaries that actually make sense.
Oh, and here's something that we don't have. We don't have our national flags flying outside our homes and vehicles like we need to remind ourselves where TF we are. We don't have our kids swear a pledge of allegiance throughout their school lives. That alone sounds a lot like tyranny to me. But hey, I'm a European so what do I know, right?
@beckyromero You said: "Go buy round-trip tickets to Moscow and Beijing."
Whatever for Becky? It's happening right here in the USA to the most vocal denouncer of the US Government: Donald Trump.
America is being torn apart from within. 500 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens affirm their patriotism to the founding Christian spirit of their nation. And they have been branded as domestic terrorists by the US Government. The fight for freedom against tyranny is finally coming home.
And please, don't even try with the WW2 BS. It took three years for the US to join that conflict and the US has been strutting around the planet ever since, cosplaying as the defenders of democracy and freedom.
I first want to address the WW2 comment before moving on to things which I thing will find us in agreement.
Do you honestly believe the Soviet Union would have kept the Nazis out of Moscow and Leningrad if not for the supplies that were flowing in from the United States and the United Kingdom?
They would not have. The U.K. might have survived without U.S. aid. But, remember, they couldn't even find the German battleship Bismarck wihout our help after it eluded HMS Suffolk and HMS Norfolk.
After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the battleship, HMS Warspite, served as Admiral Somerville's flagship in the Indian Ocean and was later involved in battles in the Mediterranean, the invasions of Sicily, the Italian mainland and Normandy. Where was she on December 7, 1941? Being repaired at Bremerton Naval Shipyard.
So to say that it took "three years for the US to join" World War II is a bit disingenuous.
We, in the civilised world, have all of that and more. If what we have is tyranny, you guys need to get yourselves dictionaries that actually make sense.
Talk to your elders what it was like living under Francisco Franco. Seriously! (sorry, I couldn't resist) 😉
You brought our electoral college. Well, did you "vote" for your King? At least your King loves your country. Trump wanted to be treated as an absolute monarch and does NOT love our country.
Our we perfect? No! Of course not!
Are we "better" than everyone else? No! Of course not!
Are there other democracies in the world which are wonderful places to live? Yes! Absolutely.
My sister-in-law's mom is from Calgary. Canada is a wonderful place. I have been to Paris - and loved it.
Haven't been to the U.K. or Spain, but I am sure they, too, are wonderful places to live. You had your dark periods in history just as we have. Things our nations did that we are not proud of. I think both you and I can admit that. Others perhaps not so much. Not speaking of anyone in particular, just in general.
But China, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, most of the Muslim world are not wonderful places to live. Not if you believe in basic individual freedoms. I think you would agree to that.
And as far as womens' reproductive rights, that will get sorted out soon enough. Maybe you haven't paid as close attention being on the other side of the ocean, but Kansan voters went to the polls on the issue. And Ohioan votes soundly rejected a GOP-pushed constitutional amendment that would require 60% of the vote to reverse future amendments. Why was that put on the ballot? Because there's a November ballot measure to protect abortion rights. The bottom line is that many in the GOP are worried that their party's chicanery is putting Ohio back into play for 2024.
The MAGA folks are making a lot of noise right now because they are in the minority and that minority is shrinking more and more each year. They are like a rabid animal that has been cornered.
"I have been flying the flag on my front porch with pride since forever. I have taken it down. It is a symbol of divisiveness even within the country."
I replied that: "some politicians who like to try to hijack ownership of the flag to use for their own partisan purposes. They don't own the flag! It belongs to the people of the United States. By taking down the flag you are signalling your surrender to the very forces of divisiveness you are criticizing."
And the response to me was a critique that could have been written by Putin's minions in the Kremlin:
We have been bombing other countries and meddling in their internal affair since WW2. Before that, in the Mexican-American war, we took vast territories (Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, Colorado) from Mexico. Now, we have 1000 military bases all over the world and rooting to go to war with Russia and China.
I have been flying the flag on my front porch with pride since forever.
So you tell me? Did @sree251 just discover that "we have been "bombing other countries and meddling in their internal affair since WW2."
And who is the they @sree251 being referred to there?
The Mexican-American war sure didn't stop @sree251 from "flying the flag on my front porch with pride since forever."
So, please @room101, tell me. As someone in Europe, do you not find anything hypocritcal about those two statements by @sree251?
@sree251 didn't say that he has stopped flying the flag because some people (who?) are rooting "to rooting to go to war with Russia and China."
Nor did @sree251 say he has stopped flying the flag because we have "1000 military bases all over the world."
He's someone who is in the 41-45 age group per his SW profile. That puts him at at least 18 when 9/11 happened. So he presumably had learned something about 20th century history in high school by then. World War I, World War II, the Korean War, our involvement with Iran, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, our aid to Afghan rebels after the Soviet invasion, the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, the Cold War with the U.S.S.R. etc., etc., etc.
And none of that stop him from "flying the flag on my front porch with pride since forever."
It's because he now claims the flag is a "symbol of divisiveness."
Give me a break!
I'll tell you what this is about.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine and our support for Ukraine.
And because Trump opposes our support for Ukraine. And because @sree251 supports Trump.
@beckyromero I'm not siding with @sree251 in any of this, especially not this specific bit of catastrophic nonsense:
"500 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens affirm their patriotism to the founding Christian spirit of their nation."
Re Franco and your quip about me asking my elders, I'm not Spanish, I just happen to be living here for the last almost four years. Fun fact btw, the US supported Franco because they saw him as an ally against the USSR. Maybe if they hadn't, he would have been ousted in the same way that Italy ousted Mussolini.
As for WW2, yes it did take you three years to join the conflict. Any ideas as to why?
The USA was an ally just like all the other allies in that war. They were not unique and the were not special. Sure, they had a lot more bodies and weapons to throw against Nazi Germany but, in and of itself, what does that mean in the context of the devastation and destruction suffered by those of us who were in the thick of it from day one?
But we're missing the point here. I generally agree with pretty much everything that you post. Occasionally I'll say something that I think that you've missed or question something that you've said that makes little sense to my European perspective. BUT, 99% of the time, I agree with you. On this, not so much:
"Freedom and to honor the sacrifices made by the men and women who not only have preserved that freedom for us but to gain it for others who were suffering under tyranny"
That was my question to you, do you honestly believe that the US has saved any country from tyranny?
Finally, yes I am very much aware of what's going on in US politics. I'm aware of the recent vote in Ohio, I'm aware of all of the BS constantly being spewed out by your Republicans and, quite frankly, I'm appalled and "scared" in equal measure. Maybe "scared" is too strong a word IDK. But the fact remains that the US is the strongest military power on the planet by a huge margin. What happens if the US gets its own Franco, Mussolini or Hitler? A few years ago, I would have scoffed at the idea, now? It's something that bothers me a lot.
I think that decent Americans (Americans like yourself) need to take a good hard look at themselves and admit that these preposterous ideas of American exceptionalism are exactly that, preposterous!
You are not defenders against tyranny. You are a flawed nation just like the rest of us. And you need to constantly work on mitigating those flaws..............JUST LIKE THE REST OF US!
@beckyromero PS I skipped past your comment about King Charles III as a rebuttal to your Electoral College (seriously?) because I'm fed up with trying to explain to Americans what the British Monarchy is and how it works, what its place is in UK politics.
May I suggest that you look up what happened to King Charles I when he tried to usurp Parliament in 1649. Almost 130 years BEFORE your Declaration of Independence was even a thing.
Which highlights yet another fallacy that most Americans live under. The fallacy that your War of Independence was a war against the tyranny of a king. It was not! It was a war against the greed of Parliamentarians.
@room101 You said: "I'm not siding with @sree251 in any of this, especially not this specific bit of catastrophic nonsense:
"500 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens affirm their patriotism to the founding Christian spirit of their nation."
What is your objection? You are profiling Americans as "catastrophic nonsense" based on their reported ownership of 500 million guns? Those legally-owned guns were bought in accordance with strict gun laws as a result of threats by government to throttle their right to gun ownership under the Second Amendment. This Constitutional right is not for owning guns for hunting duck and deer, or guarding their farms, or for protection against home-invaders in far-flung places where police presence is absent. It is for the people's right to fight oppressive forces when the government no longer exist.
The Second Amendment is an unique provision enjoyed only by citizens of the USA. No other nation is this upfront in warning its government that sovereignty always rests with its citizens, and never with individuals elected to office to run the government. Admittedly, this is an idealistic law of the land. Other nations may be silent about this provision to act when their government becomes toxic, but it doesn't stop them from acting and they had acted in no uncertain terms. It is silly to imagine that those 500 million guns will actually be used to fire the US Government. It won't happen that way but Congress and the White House will know when the game is over.
@room101 I know how the British Monarchy works. King Charles III is very much in power. His is the power of a British aristocrat like the Earl of Grantham of Downton Abbey. And Sunak, is his Prime Minister, is in charge of the affairs of the British Realm, much like fulfilling the role of Mr Carson, the head butler managing affairs of the household.
All public lands in the realm belongs to King Charles III, not the British people who are citizens of the UK by virtue of being subjects of the King. Technically, King Charles III can banish any citizens from the UK. King Charles III own all public lands within the Realm, even in Australia or Canada, because they are vested in the Crown. So, he is no figurehead. It is not that easy to get rid of the British Monarchy. It would be a legal nightmare.
@sree251 Mate, it's clear that you have no idea what the term "strict gun laws" means.
You have more guns on your streets than there are men, women and children. The leading cause of death amongst the under 18's is GUNS. In the first six months of this year, you have averaged mass shootings at a rate of approx two per day.
THAT's catastrophic.
Your 2nd A, specifically its interpretation and application is nonsense. Nonsense fostered by an organisation whose sole aim is to promote gun sales and protect gun manufacturers.
I generally agree with pretty much everything that you post. Occasionally I'll say something that I think that you've missed or question something that you've said that makes little sense to my European perspective. BUT, 99% of the time, I agree with you.
Thank you. Just as I can say I about agree with you almost all the time.
I'll try to address what you brought up. Not in great detail, because I think we're really not in too much disagreement here, either.
As for WW2, yes it did take you three years to join the conflict. Any ideas as to why?
Of course. We had our isolationists and naive doves just as the British and French did. We also had Nazi sympathizers. One such crackpot, U.S. Sen. Gerald Nye of North Dakota, was denouncing President Roosevelt as a warmonger to an American First crowd at the very same time Japanese bombs were dropping on Pearl Harbor, refusing to believe a reporter as to what was happening.
But thanks to FDR's foresight we didn't start building the Navy that won the war in the Pacific on December 8th, 1941. Carriers and battleships had already been laid down in the years preceding the attack. The draft extension survived by one vote - ONE VOTE. So we had a trained army. And of course the supplies that were sent to Britain and the Soviets under the Lend-Lease Act.
Per the U.S. Department of State:
Totaling $11.3 billion, or $180 billion in today’s currency, the Lend-Lease Act of the United States supplied needed goods to the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1945 in support of what Stalin described to Roosevelt as the “enormous and difficult fight against the common enemy — bloodthirsty Hitlerism.”
400,000 jeeps & trucks 14,000 airplanes 8,000 tractors 13,000 tanks 1.5 million blankets 15 million pairs of army boots 107,000 tons of cotton 2.7 million tons of petrol products 4.5 million tons of food
but, in and of itself, what does that mean in the context of the devastation and destruction suffered by those of us who were in the thick of it from day one?
Well, as you probably have seen in the past, I'm appauled by the criticism directed towards the French, the "surrender" jokes, etc. They and the Brits, despite their ill-preparedness, stuck to their word and declared war after Germany invaded Poland. They risked not only their blood and treasure, but their very nationhood.
You have probably seen how highly critical I have been of the Washington naval treaties which allowed Japan to quickly catch up to the U.S. and the British. The Harding and Coolidge administrations sunk more U.S. capital ships by treaty than that were lost in the First World War in battle.
And then there's the Treaty of Versailles, which was too soft on the Germans and did not allocate sufficient protection for France, on the soil of whcih saw nearly the entire Western Front waged on.
Marshal Foch of France was right when he denounced the Treaty, calling it not a peace treaty but "an armistice for twenty years."
do you honestly believe that the US has saved any country from tyranny?
Of course we have. During both World Wars (along with our Allies of course). South Korea was saved from communist rule by President Truman's quick decision. Surely you would agree that the people of South Korea would be suffering today under the tyrannical rule of Kim Jong Un had we not, under UN auhtority, defending South Korea.
Would the peoples of Eastern Europe be free of Soviet domination had the West not "won" the Cold War? Did Mikhail Gorbachev play a big role in all of that? Of course. But would it have happened if the U.S. was isolationist as it was in the 1920s? Very, very doubtful.
Have we made mistakes? I don't deny that. You know that. But the world would be a much darker place if it were not for the U.S. role in the 20th century.
the fact remains that the US is the strongest military power on the planet by a huge margin. What happens if the US gets its own Franco, Mussolini or Hitler? A few years ago, I would have scoffed at the idea, now? It's something that bothers me a lot.
And it's a worry here, too. When I call Trump "Il Duce" it is not a joke. But what Trump doesn't share with Mussolini is the thirst for military adventurism.
The MAGA people don't want to use our military to conquer other nations. Hell, they'd rather CUT defense spending in favor of tax cuts! Putin was no doubt counting on a Trump re-election in 2020 to see the U.S. leave NATO before launching his invasion of Ukraine. Biden's victory upset Putin's calculations.
As far as our nukes, I think you should worry more about a Trump if he got in again trying to nuke a hurricane than other nation.
I suggest that you look up what happened to King Charles I when he tried to usurp Parliament in 1649. Almost 130 years BEFORE your Declaration of Independence was even a thing.
Oh, I know the history. But then Cromwell wasn't perfect, either, in the aftermath. I'm sure the Irish cold attest to that. And he wasn't exactly a protector as far as freedom of religion was concerned.
And I'll say that our early days as a nation were far from perfect, starting with the protection of slavery.
The aftermath of revolutions are seldom a tidy affair. Those that succeed in the name of freedom often take a while to sort things out.
@beckyromero With respect, all of the examples that you have given vis-a-vis saving nations from tyranny, have all happened because of the Western Alliances. That's what bugs me, the fact that so many Americans believe that the good ol' U S of A did it all on its lonesome. You didn't. In fact, you've objectively lost every single war that you've been in. With the exception of WW2 (where, I repeat, you were one of many allies - significant but still one of many) and the wars you've fought against yourselves.
Sending stuff and repairing British battleships does not constitute being in the conflict with us!
Cromwell has got nothing to do with the point that I'm making. Comparing the British Monarchy with your Electoral College is, quite frankly, laughable. I expect better from you. You are an informed, astute and very eloquent member of this site. Putting those two systems in one sentence is beneath you.
Re the orange PAB and the MAGA movement, perhaps we can shelve that for another discussion. I feel that it needs a deeper dive than what the OP would be "comfortable" with😉
@beckyromero I am not a patriot,Becky. And I never voted for anyone in my life. The US flag was already flying at my house which was inherited from my grandfather. He was a Colonel in the US Army and served in WW2 in the Pacific. After that, he redeployed to Korea, and Vietnam. He was aide decamp to General Westmoreland and his mouthpiece on CNN. Naturally, he was my hero. I kept the flag flying in memory of him. He also gave me his sidearm, and two rifles, from the Civil War era, above the fireplace. All that tradition is thrashed by the woke culture now. I took down the flag because it is your flag now.
I have been flying the flag on my front porch with pride since forever.
Now it's this:
I am not a patriot,Becky. And I never voted for anyone in my life. The US flag was already flying at my house which was inherited from my grandfather. He was a Colonel in the US Army and served in WW2 in the Pacific. After that, he redeployed to Korea, and Vietnam. He was aide decamp to General Westmoreland and his mouthpiece on CNN. Naturally, he was my hero. I kept the flag flying in memory of him
What will be the third version of why you flew the flag "since forever"?
Oh, and btw, CNN didn't exist during the Vietnam War.
@room101 I am going to start a thread on what you posted above: "Woke: a term used to describe a person who is alert to the racial and social injustice in the world."
@sree251 Question, in this imagined battlefield of yours, will you be at least pretending to voice opinions of your own or will you continue to sprout off the gibberish from your pathetic little echo chamber?
