How to pay our debts? Tax the rich ofcourse.We have a society of homeless and families who are poor and millionaires who don't care about the poor!

@ElwoodBlues Brain fog hasn't lifted 'i see. Darwin is getting closer. So how many poor folks did you personally feed today? The church was having a lunch after the service. Potluck. Everyone brought enough food to feed their family and one more person. A homeless man clearly stoned on drugs wandered into the hall. We made sure he was well fed and gave him a bottle of water to keep hydrated today. It is quite warm out. He asked for seconds so we gave him another heaping plate of food. In the time he was in our hall we found out that he is on welfare but his welfare money goes to buying drugs, He said he hasn't eaten in a few days so he was a bit hungry. Oh and by the way one of our new families is from Kiev Ukraine. They fled when the war started and after some time in Poland they had enough money to buy airfare to Edmonton. They don't speak much English but they brought a delicious Ukrainian salad as their contribution to our potluck. I drove them to church and back home again. It was a lot of fun listening to them singing hymns and choruses in Ukrainian and Polish. They said that they also speak Russian and German but not much English. They are learning fast. Now somewhere Jesus talked about welcoming the strangers too but you see we try not to parade our good works before men. We look for our reward from above and thus try not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. But you carry on son. Your Darwin is fast approaching. Maybe you could find a few homeless to feed or strangers to welcome or sick to take care of in the little time you have left.

@hippyjoe1955
[quote] you see we try not to parade our good works before men [/quote] Said the guy who just finished bragging about his good works, [b]LOL!!![/b]

You asked [quote]where Jesus told us to feed the poor by government fiat. [/quote] Government is a tool. The Bible doesn't specify which tools can or can't be used. There's no scriptural basis for your refusal to allow governments to help the hungry, the poor, the sick, etc. No scriptural basis whatsoever.

You asked [quote]Where do you get the idea that Jesus wants you to feed the poor? [/quote]
Now at least you're willing to admit that Jesus did in fact urge us to feed the hungry. That's a step in the right direction.

@ElwoodBlues Not bragging. Just making the point that it is individual works that count. The use of state (worship of Caesar) is not helping anyone. If you truly want to help the poor you have to get involved. If you don't care about the poor then you can give your money to the state who will not give it to the poor in any meaningful way.

@ElwoodBlues Thank you!

@Carazaa Ah yes one good socialists depends on the other. Too funny. Next time try being a Christian. Try to actually do something for the betterment of our society rather than give money to the state which is obviously working so well. I have been working with homeless people since the early 1990s. The trend is going the wrong way. The more money the state takes in the more homelessness I see. In the city I live in no one wants to go downtown. The mayors and city council have for years encouraged people to go downtown. All the transit system goes through downtown, The art galleries and museums and even sporting venues are downtown. But people don't want to go there. Why not? Because downtown has become a homeless encampment. You walk out of the courthouse and are confronted with a homeless camp. Go to the urban parks and you will see homeless camps. Try to use transit and you have to step over people sleeping on the sidewalk and in the transit centers. I mentioned the homeless fellow who wandered into church yesterday. That is normal now. Not many years ago that never happened. What has changed? Well for one thing the government got involved and helping the poor became what is now called the poverty industry. As a non profit trying to help the poor get off the street I am under constant pressure from the government who wants to take over. Sadly everywhere that the government has taken over the situation has just gotten worse. The big homeless shelters and shelters for people who are too drunk or stoned to get into the big homeless shelter are run by government and it is not working. What used to be effective Christian outreaches to the poor and homeless and addicts has become a business that doesn't want to run out of clients.

Jesus never said to set up a government program to help the poor. He said "YOU feed the poor". Huge difference and it is the difference between effective Christianity and ineffective socialism. Socialism simply doesn't work.

@hippyjoe1955 [quote]Jesus never said to set up a government program to help the poor.[/quote] True.

Equally true, Jesus never said [b]DON'T[/b] set up a government program to help the poor. Jesus didn't micromanage the methodology; he was interested in the results; i.e. improving the lot of the poor, the hungry, the sick, the disabled, etc. And government is a very effective tool in producing those results.

The harsh truth for you, Joe, the truth you can't face, is that your brand of politics has become un-Christian, while liberalism has become more Christian. These facts are at the heart of your cognitive dissonance.

Modern North American conservatism is the politics of selfishness and enabling violence, while modern North American liberalism is the politics of caring for those less fortunate than ourselves thru the mechanisms of government. I know you'll deny it, but it's patently obvious who is distributing the medical care and TANF and AFDC and social security benefits.

I say your anti-government bias has no basis whatsoever in scripture, that Jesus didn't micromanage the methodology, and I invite you to cite chapter and verse to prove me wrong.

@ElwoodBlues Let me explain something. You cannot use that justification based on Christianity like the person who originally tried to justify the expansion of the state. The state is an independent agency. It does what it does but it does not come under Christian justifications. The fact is simply that the state is an idol. It does not work well at all. Some degree of state is required. Providing social services is not its strength. It does not work to achieve the goals we set out. If we want to eliminate poverty (a fool's errand BTW) the state is the last thing that should be relied on. It simply doesn't work well. It sets up bureaucratic empires and silly programs and protocols. I witnessed a family get turned down for welfare when he became unemployed. Next door lived another family who was on welfare. The second family owned a farm that they rented out. The husband was a finishing carpenter and worked full time. They somehow qualified for welfare while the first family didn't. The social workers didn't care about the first family or the second family. They had rules to follow. The first family came to our church and we helped them. We didn't have much money but we had someone in the church who was looking to hire a good worker. Problem solved. Oh btw the second family went on to buy a very nice home in the city without selling their farm. I heard that 15 years later they were charged with fraud and lost the home but for 15 years they lived on government largess and no one questioned them. So again are you interested in helping people or are you trying to feel self righteous?

@hippyjoe1955 No chapter and verse?

As I said, your anti-government bias has no basis whatsoever in scripture. Keep on proving me right!

BTW, "the state" is a collection of people, just like any church is a collection of people. And anecdotes are no substitute for statistics. Medicare and TANF and AFDC and social security have benefited hundreds of millions of people over the years.

@ElwoodBlues It doesn't matter what chapter you cite if you misread the chapter you have misread the chapter. If Jesus wanted you to give to the state to help the poor He would have said so. He didn't say that. He said YOU feed the poor. Not the state do feed the poor. Jesus was very smart in keeping the state in its proper place. Of course if you know your Bible and I know you don't, the history of Israel was that the people wanted to set up a state (king) and it was viewed as a rejection of God. 1 Samuel 8. Verse 7 of that chapter is very instructive.

@hippyjoe1955 Jesus never said [b]DON'T[/b] set up a government program to help the poor. Jesus didn't micromanage the methodology; he was interested in the results; i.e. improving the lot of the poor, the hungry, the sick, the disabled, etc. And government is a very effective tool in producing those results.

Your anti-government bias has no basis whatsoever in scripture. Keep on proving me right!

@ElwoodBlues Yawn. So you are not capable of reading the Bible. That brain fog sure is doing a number on you.

@hippyjoe1955 Yawn. So the essence of your argument is "Jesus never said to ..."

Shall I demonstrate how silly that argument is?

Jesus never said to wear eyeglasses.
Jesus never said to heat food in a microwave.
Jesus never said to travel in airplanes.
Jesus never said to use medication to lower blood pressure.
Jesus never said to use medication to lower cholesterol.
Jesus never said to communicate with radio waves.
Jesus never said to burn fossil fuels - coal was unknown in biblical times.

Dude, the list of "Jesus never said" items is infinite. It's one of the silliest arguments you've ever presented, and that's saying something!!

@ElwoodBlues What you are ignoring is the condemnation of the state in 1 Samuel. the people wanted the state to fight their battles for them. Thus when it came to fighting poverty they want the state to do it not themselves. Jesus was talking about individual deeds that are to be done by the individual. YOU feed the poor and clothe them and visit them in Jail and treat their illnesses. It is a command to the individual to do it as an act of obedience to Jesus. Jesus said "If you love me you will keep my commands." These are some of His commands. They are on the individual not on the state. The individual does not gain by the state's actions. You can not claim that giving more money to the state makes you a better or more faithful Christian. You feeding the poor or clothing them or welcoming strangers or healing the sick or..... That is on you. Not the state. You are obviously not a Christian so this is not applicable to you. However for a Christian to claim that they are made virtuous by paying more taxes is simply delusional.

@hippyjoe1955 Thanks for reminding me of one other big item on the infinite list of "Jesus never said to ..."

Jesus never said to choose leadership and representatives via elections. Jesus never said to vote. According to your silly logic, that means good Christians should never vote either, [b]LOL!!![/b] I hope that puts the final nail in the "Jesus never said" coffin.

First Samuel might seem to criticize the early monarchy of the tribes of Israel, but it doesn't criticize the [i]idea[/i] of government. And in fact once David is King, that makes it clear that First Samuel isn't criticizing the idea of monarchy either. In the end First Samuel only criticizes the weak and greedy King Saul. So your argument falls flat on those grounds alone.

But wait! There's more!! First Samuel is NOT the words of Jesus. First Samuel is deep in the Old Testament. The New Covenant renders many of the old laws, such as the dietary restrictions, obsolete. This is made clear in Galatians 3:24-5
[quote] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster [/quote]

New Covenent, New laws; 1 Samuel is way past it's sell-by date.

Thus there's no scriptural basis for your refusal to allow governments to help the hungry, the poor, the sick, etc. No scriptural basis whatsoever.

@ElwoodBlues Brain fog acting up again? Seriously do you know the difference from Must do to Can do to Don't do? Jesus told Christians that if you want to be Christian then you personally must be willing and able to give to the poor when asked. That instruction does not include setting up state programs. That doesn't stop you from setting up state programs it simply means that state programs do not replace your personal need to give to the poor apart from the state. The Don't do are things like state sponsored euthanasia such is abortion on demand. Very different things. Sadly they elude you and your brain fog addled mind.

@hippyjoe1955 [quote] Jesus told Christians[/quote]
If He did so, why can't you quote any scripture to support your claims??
Chapter and verse, dude, you haven't got any chapter and verse!!

@ElwoodBlues I did. Is that brain fog acting up again?

@hippyjoe1955 I ask for chapter and verse, and you toss insults instead.

Your anti-government bias has no basis whatsoever in scripture, and you keep on proving me right!

@ElwoodBlues I already gave you chapter and verse hours ago. Maybe that brain fog is worse than you imagine.

@hippyjoe1955 You gave me an Old Testament critique of King Saul.

You did NOT give me a Biblical argument against government, and in any case it's all been obviated by the New Covenant, as I cited from Galatians.

@ElwoodBlues No it was a passage of scripture that predated Saul. It is an eternal truth. People who reject God ask for a state to fight their battles for them.

@ElwoodBlues Maybe you could look up 1 Corinthians 13:3

@hippyjoe1955 @hippyjoe1955 [quote]No it was a passage of scripture that predated Saul.[/quote] You cited First Samuel, a chapter that describes the problems of King Saul.

Now you have a new passage?

[quote]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.[/quote] That in no way whatsoever prevents good works via government.

@ElwoodBlues The passage was written before Samuel met Saul. Do try to stop making your brain fog so evident.