Grrr... most of those who have got Covid have been vaccinated!

@GeniUs That is a cop out - the answer isn’t to surrender to a flood of FUD, but to become more rigorous in your analysis - or if you lack the skill set, leave it to the professionals.

@GeniUs I proved that back in my college days with a deliberately flawed survey. I asked 100 people who went to PSU if they had ever been to New York. I then intentionally manipulated the results to suggest that no one goes to New York.

@QuixoticSoul That's not possible unless you isolate 2 groups with similar (already getting vague) medical backgrounds vaccinate one group leave the others unvaccinated and then expose them all to Covid and watch the results. There are still a number of variables here but to my knowledge nobody has even carried this out.

@GeniUs You have essentially just described the phase 3 trials for every vaccine released in the states.

@QuixoticSoul and hopefully the results of these other vaccines have been much better than for a virus that is now in it's 3rd year and there seems to be no sign of abatement.

@GeniUs Probably not, vaccines aren’t magic - the relationship any given virus has with the immune system still drives the situation. You generally have lifetime immunity after a bout of smallpox or polio, so you get a similar sort of immunity after vaccination. Covid immunity after infection wanes relatively quickly, and it is likewise with vaccines. You’re still dramatically better off being vaccinated/boosted - natural immunity is a lot riskier to acquire.

@GeniUs there is literally sign of abatement. The original forms of the virus are virtually non existent.

The vaccines have been quite literally proven to be broadly effective at preventing more serious illnesses.

Could we have done this without vaccines? Possibly, but that would have required even more draconian lockdowns, not to mention distancing cooperation from the same people who claim the vaccines weren’t tested.

You are completely missing the point of most of what is being said here.

@JoeyFoxx Missing the point, no. No I am not. My main point is that none of this is scientific if the virus had been allowed to run it's course the results may have been better worse or about the same, nobody knows because it isn't testable. Natural immunity, people dying off which affects the figures, and numerous other factors not tested.
And BTW you have now switched from 'having a laugh' to 'serious comment' that is not a good way to stimulate argument.

@GeniUs In science you don’t always have a luxury of perfectly set up isolated laboratory experiments, this is just life. This doesn’t render modern epidemiology, etc unscientific - it makes the science more challenging.

Nevertheless, we have a metric fuckton of data at this point, and can make some extremely well supported conclusions.

@QuixoticSoul My father in law was a MacBeth and could follow his family tree back to the king of Scotland, except for one link. One link.
I disagree about your conclusion about the Covid vaccine and I have yet to see real supportable evidence of it's effectiveness. Real evidence.

@GeniUs And if you require some sort of Mengele-style setup as the only possible sort of evidence you’ll accept, you never will. Nevertheless, there is tons of it out there, and very little doubt on behalf of the world’s scientific professionals.

@QuixoticSoul Is that where the discussion has gone?
[quote]Mengele-style setup[/quote]
If you want to win this discussion fine but you have gone badly down in my estimation resorting to a comment like that. I hope for your sake you are drinking.

@GeniUs He did say if. As far as I can tell, it's hyperbole meant to shine a light on your very high standards.

@GeniUs [quote] isolate 2 groups with similar (already getting vague) medical backgrounds vaccinate one group leave the others unvaccinated and then [b]expose them all to Covid [/b]and watch the results.[/quote]
No reason to get insulted, that is literally what you asked for - a setup incompatible with modern medical ethics.

@QuixoticSoul Incorrect in so many ways. You are now compounding your error of using an offensive reference to something that is totally unassociated with it. Give it up and for the love of god stop drinking and posting.

@GeniUs We don’t isolate and deliberately expose people to potentially deadly diseases as part of clinical trials, and “Mengele-style” is a perfectly accurate characterization of such an experiment proposal.

Thankfully you are completely incorrect that this is the only possible way to gather real evidence.

Getting super offended just looks like a deflection tactic tbh, but if you want to get into a pose about it go right ahead.

@QuixoticSoul I'm not offended I'm just drawing attention to your offensive language (I'll point out my 30 years in the military just here.)
And now you are exaggerating to try and confirm your point:
[quote]We don’t isolate[/quote] How else is this achieved scientifically?
[quote]deliberately expose people to potentially deadly diseases [/quote] yes people are but the probability of death is remote in the extreme - seriously fella you absolutely fucked up here just let it go. You are trying to find the weasliest way to make your point and you are just wrong. I'm actually sad you went down this road to make a pitifully fragile case. I am really.

@GeniUs What does your military service have to do with anything?

You proposed a Mengele-style experiment that you seem to think is fine because potential for death is relatively low - and positioned it as the only way to get useful evidence. Well, we don’t do things this way, ever - it goes against medical ethics. Now you’re super offended 🤷‍♂️

@GeniUs [quote]How else is this achieved scientifically?[/quote]

The measurments and assessments of groups of people for public health and vaccine research has been developed and refined over the past 70 years. There are plenty of resources out there that demonstrate how this works.

Are you trying to suggest that all vaccines are bogus?

@QuixoticSoul That I have to explain things to you makes you just fall down in my estimation over and over:
I've done 30 years in the military very little offends me - certainly not words on a forum. You are still trying to justify your use of 'Mengele style' when what is proposed is scientific and if you don't understand that I'm really pissing in the wind with you. Sorry fella but you have now gone beyond making your point to where you must be seen as right even posting the nonsense you are. We're done, look back on this when you are sober and feel embarrassed.

@JoeyFoxx [quote]Are you trying to suggest that all vaccines are bogus?[/quote]That is a ridiculous assertation. Many of them have proved to be effective.

@GeniUs Agreed, including the COVID vaccine.

And zero studies have required the type of isolation you are suggesting is the only way to do a scientific study.

@JoeyFoxx No, not the Covid vaccine which is why I said many not all. And using isolation is the only way to get a scientific result which is why people are paid thousands of pounds/dollars to take part in these studies. (And that is a pittance compared to the money to be gained from them).

@GeniUs It’s unclear why you’re so offended at the characterization, when Mengele had set up experiments in precisely that manner - for example with Malaria (which has a CFR of .3%, so not especially deadly by your standards). Those experiments were scientific, they are simply extremely unethical - thankfully they aren’t the only way to do real science in this sphere, just the easiest.

We don’t intentionally expose people to diseases in clinical trials. The past has let a real bad taste in people’s mouths.

@QuixoticSoul Seriously fella, last post because you have become unconcerned with debate and think that your use of the word 'offended' is issue for me. I have met and spoken to ordinary people who were involved in trials (and taken the money) that meant they had no contact with people once infected. You are guessing and you are wrong.