OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F
Include the Afghan government and US other allies in the withdrawal process would help. Stabbing them in the back and running away was the act of a coward.
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Northwest · M
@OnlyRhonda
I don't know what truth you're referring to. Unless you that you finally realized the absurdity of your claims.
1. That the UK had not withdrawn its troops.
2. That the US troops withdrawal comes as a surprise to the UK, even though the entire world has been aware of the decision to withdraw for 18 months.
Or that you realized the irony and hypocrisy of this statement of yours:
From an "English" person, given how we stepped in twice, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of American lives, to save you from the Germans.
Not that I believe that our cold war conflicts are justifiable, but coming from an "English" person is certainly laughable with all your colonial history.
And I don't really get what you're crowing about with your "the US cannot win a war on its own". Is it an argument someone is making? And what does it have to do with the discussion at hand?
If you want to blame someone for British involvement, send an email to Boris Johnson, he's been the Prime Minister for years. He certainly could have set aside a couple of moments, from his busy schedule trying to get an accurate accounting of how many kids he has, to withdraw your troops.
Yes, actually I don't think of myself as British. English really. I don't have any Welsh, Scots or Irish blood in me. Pure Anglo-Jute-Saxon.
the truth hurts eh?
I can't think of any other wars the US has won alone. Maybe against the Sioux?
the truth hurts eh?
I can't think of any other wars the US has won alone. Maybe against the Sioux?
I don't know what truth you're referring to. Unless you that you finally realized the absurdity of your claims.
1. That the UK had not withdrawn its troops.
2. That the US troops withdrawal comes as a surprise to the UK, even though the entire world has been aware of the decision to withdraw for 18 months.
Or that you realized the irony and hypocrisy of this statement of yours:
Well, hopefully the world has learned to allow them to fight their own wars and next time they decide to play silly games, we'll leave them to it.
From an "English" person, given how we stepped in twice, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of American lives, to save you from the Germans.
Not that I believe that our cold war conflicts are justifiable, but coming from an "English" person is certainly laughable with all your colonial history.
And I don't really get what you're crowing about with your "the US cannot win a war on its own". Is it an argument someone is making? And what does it have to do with the discussion at hand?
If you want to blame someone for British involvement, send an email to Boris Johnson, he's been the Prime Minister for years. He certainly could have set aside a couple of moments, from his busy schedule trying to get an accurate accounting of how many kids he has, to withdraw your troops.
OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F
@Northwest The UK continued to have troops training the Afghans - maybe you did not notice in your Americancentred world?
In the 1914-18 war, most of the fighting was over before the US limped over. I believe they fought in one major battle.
In the 1939-45 war, Russia took the burden, facing about 70-75% of the German land and air forces. The UK faced about 75% of the German navy, plus 95% of the Italian Navy and air force.
the US only came in when Japan attacked them, so did not rush to anybody aid. Hollywood really does have a lot to answer for!
And yes, the US cannot win a war on its own. The ordinary soldiers are as brave and skilled as anybody but the leadership is even worse than ours and the higher officers? I feel sorry for the men and women under their command.
In the 1914-18 war, most of the fighting was over before the US limped over. I believe they fought in one major battle.
In the 1939-45 war, Russia took the burden, facing about 70-75% of the German land and air forces. The UK faced about 75% of the German navy, plus 95% of the Italian Navy and air force.
the US only came in when Japan attacked them, so did not rush to anybody aid. Hollywood really does have a lot to answer for!
And yes, the US cannot win a war on its own. The ordinary soldiers are as brave and skilled as anybody but the leadership is even worse than ours and the higher officers? I feel sorry for the men and women under their command.
Northwest · M
@OnlyRhonda
It's almost as if you don't know how to read. In my first response to you, I said:
Followed by a reply to another comment of yours:
Your hate is noted. But it could only be matched by your ignorance of history and your talent for tall tales, like how the UK Government had not been aware of the US withdrawaL.
The UK continued to have troops training the Afghans - maybe you did not notice in your Americancentred world?
It's almost as if you don't know how to read. In my first response to you, I said:
1. The British withdrew in 2014, 7 years before we did. Some British troops were left behind to train Afghan National Army troops. We already know how well that took.
Followed by a reply to another comment of yours:
Some British troops were left behind to train Afghan National Army troops.
Your hate is noted. But it could only be matched by your ignorance of history and your talent for tall tales, like how the UK Government had not been aware of the US withdrawaL.
MarkPaul · 26-30, M
I think he just wants to get out and end the thing regardless of how the chips fall. While I think he could have been more straightforward in his communication, he just may have chosen the best option after all...
1. If he pre-announced things were going to be chaotic with the withdrawal, there would have been an outcry to delay and do what has been done in the past... push out the decision "to some other time."
2. If he started pulling people out en masse in advance, there would have been an outcry about "the refugees are coming, the refugees are coming, OMG... the refugees."
3. If he waited for the perfect execution plan to be put in place, it would have pushed the issue closer to the elections and given the Republican-Insurrectionists ammunition to say he was extending the war.
It's time to end the war. The quick downfall of the Afghan propped-up government and the easy take-over by the Taliban is pretty much proof there is nothing to be gained by staying longer. Knowing when to quit is sometimes the best way to win. Having the fortitude to quit is never easy. In these modern times, we have enough evidence to conclude war is never a solution. It no longer works.
1. If he pre-announced things were going to be chaotic with the withdrawal, there would have been an outcry to delay and do what has been done in the past... push out the decision "to some other time."
2. If he started pulling people out en masse in advance, there would have been an outcry about "the refugees are coming, the refugees are coming, OMG... the refugees."
3. If he waited for the perfect execution plan to be put in place, it would have pushed the issue closer to the elections and given the Republican-Insurrectionists ammunition to say he was extending the war.
It's time to end the war. The quick downfall of the Afghan propped-up government and the easy take-over by the Taliban is pretty much proof there is nothing to be gained by staying longer. Knowing when to quit is sometimes the best way to win. Having the fortitude to quit is never easy. In these modern times, we have enough evidence to conclude war is never a solution. It no longer works.
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
@MarkPaul it was gunna be a shit show one way or another guaranteed
Graylight · 51-55, F
No one anticipated this. Biden never said the Taliban wouldn't take over; he didn't believe it was a foregone conclusion and certainly wouldn't happen so soon. his advisors didn't see it; his military didn't see it; the media didn't see it. It's easy to sit back and armchair quarterback, but show me one single person who'd bet that 20 years of support, training, enrichment and protection would collapse inside 11 days. 20 years is a lifetime for some.
Everyone knew this would create a power vacuum and it did. The speed at which it happened for the efforts, resources and money put in was unprecedented. And let's not forget, the 20 year, 4-administration isn't on Joe Biden's shoulders alone. 42 nations sent troops in the last 20 years to aid in the Afghan reconstruction. None of those leaders saw it coming, either.
Everyone knew this would create a power vacuum and it did. The speed at which it happened for the efforts, resources and money put in was unprecedented. And let's not forget, the 20 year, 4-administration isn't on Joe Biden's shoulders alone. 42 nations sent troops in the last 20 years to aid in the Afghan reconstruction. None of those leaders saw it coming, either.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Graylight I agree with the first part.
As for nobody could see this coming I don't agree. The goal was always to build up Afghanistan to be stable but always dependent on the US. Independent and self sufficient nations can make their own foreign policy decisions that might not benefit the US. That is never the plan. The problem is no president could change a decades long doctrine in a matter of months.
Furthermore in 20 years the US backed government never controlled the majority of the country and created more a network of city states most of them surrounded by hostile territory. So when the US left they were going to fall. The only uncertainty was the timeline.
As for nobody could see this coming I don't agree. The goal was always to build up Afghanistan to be stable but always dependent on the US. Independent and self sufficient nations can make their own foreign policy decisions that might not benefit the US. That is never the plan. The problem is no president could change a decades long doctrine in a matter of months.
Furthermore in 20 years the US backed government never controlled the majority of the country and created more a network of city states most of them surrounded by hostile territory. So when the US left they were going to fall. The only uncertainty was the timeline.
Graylight · 51-55, F
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow But it's the timeline everyone has a problem with. I agree, this is not going well. I'm just not sure there's a scenario in which it was ever going to go well.
Northwest · M
Options prior to November 2001:
1. Find Bin Laden and take him out in a specific operation.
2. Invade Afghanistan.
We opted for #2, and then when that failed, invaded Iraq for kicks, and eventually went retroactively for #1.
Once we engaged in #2, it was really #2, and from that point on, the spectacle in Kabul was inevitable, no matter what play book was used or who sits in the White House.
1. Find Bin Laden and take him out in a specific operation.
2. Invade Afghanistan.
We opted for #2, and then when that failed, invaded Iraq for kicks, and eventually went retroactively for #1.
Once we engaged in #2, it was really #2, and from that point on, the spectacle in Kabul was inevitable, no matter what play book was used or who sits in the White House.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Northwest You only other thing I would point out is in 2001 we didn't need to find Bin Laden. The Taliban offered to hand him over to a third country for trial like the criminal he was. They thought incorrectly Bush would follow diplomatic norms and agree. They apparently didn't get the memo that in the US being a war criminal boosts your election profile so he invaded instead.
in10RjFox · M
US could have gifted guns to civilians before withdrawing. That would have prevented Taliban go door to door.
You stay 20 years in a country but do nothing to people's livelihood. Terrorists are richer than people. There is no economy. In 20 years you could have brought about a new educated generation.
Nothing to account for the time and opportunity wasted.
You stay 20 years in a country but do nothing to people's livelihood. Terrorists are richer than people. There is no economy. In 20 years you could have brought about a new educated generation.
Nothing to account for the time and opportunity wasted.
in10RjFox · M
@trollslayer Atleast he has taken a call. Maybe Taliban does a better job and brings about a better rule. If anyone to be blamed then it's Bush for not stipulating the exit plan or the mission.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
Stopmakingsense · 61-69, F
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Stopmakingsense Peace like ending homelessness is bad for profits.
Stopmakingsense · 61-69, F
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow for example, yes
bijouxbroussard · F
That doesn’t sound like “putting politics aside”. What was to be the result, once we went in ? We weren’t committing ourselves to oversee Afghanistan indefinitely, were we ? Afghanistan was (and is) a sovereign nation, if their people don’t want the Taliban, why haven’t they been able to defeat them ? 🤔
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
He knew
WE are the idiots for thinking he didn’t
WE are the idiots for thinking he didn’t