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Afghanistan - what were the options?

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this Afghanistan mess. The images of people clinging to planes and stories about Taliban going "door to door" are horrifying. But can we put politics aside and honestly talk about what was done right/wrong in the past 20 years?

My feeling is that the current result was inevitable, a matter of when not if. So if the US pulled out a year from now, 5 years, 10 years, the result would inevitably be the same. I think us being there from the start was a mistake - we should have gone in, taken out the folks we knew were responsible for attacking us, and gotten out. Staying 20 years probably made the problem worse in the long run.

Yeah, the result is disheartening. To me Biden's biggest blunder here is not with the withdrawal but with not being honest with himself or the rest of the country the reality of the result. He is an idiot for not knowing this would be the result and preparing for this result.

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OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

Include the Afghan government and US other allies in the withdrawal process would help. Stabbing them in the back and running away was the act of a coward.

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PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda How exactly is withdrawing 20 years later after everyone else left years ago "stabbing" anyone in the back? That is a bit hyperbolic.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Not including the Afghan government or the British allies in making a deal with the Taleban was leaving both high and dry - a very ugly betrayal.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda Well you would have to take that up with Trump. He made the deal. And just because it was not publicly stated doesn't mean the Brits were not advised. Hell they would know from the news alone. Trump was planning to be gone by May. This is not a surprise.

And same with the Afghan government. And to be blunt it would never have made a difference.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow One US president is much like another, but it's decent to advise one's allies before one runs away - or even consult them. And surely the leader of Afghanistan should be included? And Hell, learning after the event is no use to anyone- while the speed of the US retreat was not announced either. Biden - and the USA - lost a great deal of credibility as an ally (again.)

Northwest · M

@OnlyRhonda

One US president is much like another, but it's decent to advise one's allies before one runs away - or even consult them. And surely the leader of Afghanistan should be included? And Hell, learning after the event is no use to anyone- while the speed of the US retreat was not announced either. Biden - and the USA - lost a great deal of credibility as an ally (again.)

1. The British withdrew in 2014, 7 years before we did. Some British troops were left behind to train Afghan National Army troops. We already know how well that took.

2. Yes, the Afghan government should have been involved. This was not part of the initial deal cut with the Taliban in February 2020. The Afghan government was added to the negotiations, after Trump left office. Multiple meetings took place. The President of Afghanistan refused to cooperate with the Taliban, but changed his mind a few months ago. The shadow Afghanistan government, led by Hamid Karzai (the former President) fully engaged.

3. The US withdrawal plans were made public months ago. The deadline was September 11. The entire world has been aware of it. The initial deadline was May 1, 2021, per the agreement signed by the Trump administration. The Biden administration asked for a delay so they can involve the Afghan government and Turkey.

Graylight · 51-55, F

@Northwest "But it does not fits mah narrative!"

Northwest · M

@Graylight 🤣

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@Northwest The British are still there - today. Thanks, Yanks. Biden and Trump have proved to be two sides of the same coin. The US cannot be trusted as an ally - they serve their own ends and think only of the US.
Well, hopefully the world has learned to allow them to fight their own wars and next time they decide to play silly games, we'll leave them to it. They've only won two wars fighting alone - Mexico in the 1840s and Spain in 1899.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda There are a grand total of 600 British troops in Afghanistan to retrieve Brits who are probably embassy staff or people who ignored travel advisories.

And it seems pretty naive to think the US (or any nation) doesn't follow their own interests. Being an ally basically means you are fighting for the interests of another nation.

The UK has a centuries long tradition of dragging the Commonwealth/former empire into their wars so hardly have room to complain.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow 600 British troops, continuing the British presence of 20 years. Britain was there from the start to support the USA - and the USA unilaterally decided to run away, without consultation. Hopefully the world relearns the lesson they should have learned after vietnam and leaves the USA to its selfish interests. Shame on you, USA.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda Yeah no. They were sent back in to get out civilians. The UK pulled out its forces in 2014.

Again, this makes about as much sense as Canada demanding consultation after being gone since 2014. it is unrealistic and silly.

News flash, all nations act in their own interests. The UK fucked over plenty of people in the empire too. That is literally why Newfoundland is part of Canada. So the UK are kind of the last people to get indignant about this.

Also this has been common knowledge for months even to the general public at large. If Boris couldn't get his shit together that is on him.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhondaSecretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace even said they were only recently deployed to get out diplomats, civilians, and Afghans who worked with the British.

It also doesn't even make sense. You don't send 600 troops to evacuate troops you have on the ground. lol The reason the deployment was required at all is the UK has not had troops in country for years.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow There have been British soldiers in Afghanistan for the past 20 years. Always.
nations look after their own interests, but decent nations consult their allies. The USA did not.
They are a disgrace.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda I am sorry but that is just factually wrong. Your own government says otherwise. 😂

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda I will also point out the US State Department told everyone who didn't have to be there to get out in April. So again that is on Boris if he didn't take notice.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow They have been in Kabul and engaged in training.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Even the Afghans were shocked at the speed of the US retreat as they left their bases.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda Again making claims with nothing to back it up. Your own government says otherwise.

And do you really think deploying 600 soldiers for an evacuation if you already have combat troops in country makes sense? It doesn't even follow logically.

And Trump brokered this deal back in February 2020. The deadline was May 1. They had 3 months more to prepare. So sorry, that is not believable either.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow The British army had over 700 soldiers training the Afghans, from a number of regiments and units. Most left recently- the paras returned to aid the evacuation.
Anyway - who ever said the UK government was logical?
They had 3 months to prepare- but that does not alter the facts that the US brokered a deal with the taleban without consulting anybody else. Biden and Trump are both at fault there.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda If that is true that doesn't change anything. Especially if most already left.

And when you have at most a token training force what makes you think the UK has any more entitlement to be dictating anything?

Again, your government has since February of last year when the deal was made. If Boris didn't do anything about it that is on him. They had alot more then 3 months. They got a 3 month extension. They had a year and a half since the deal was made. If Boris can't get his shit together in a year that is not on Biden.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Nothing to do with dictating. Everything to do with common sense and diplomatic courtesy.

The initial deal was Trump, I think - both sides of the same coin anyway. The latter stages of the US retreat were shambolic, and caused all sorts of chaos.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda Again, how is a year and a half not enough of a courtesy? It sounds like the British are so used to running the world they forget the empire is gone.

Again, whether the US withdrawal seemed ordered to you or not everyone was given plenty of time to deal with it. If your government decided to sit on their hands till August that is on them.

OnlyRhonda · 36-40, F

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Wrong again. As I have said before, the initial deal was done without reference to the UK or the Afghan government and the present US panic is embarrassing. They abandoned their bases without even telling the Afghan forces, or giving them time to properly take over.
Do you have a major chip on your shoulder about the historic British Empire? It was gone before I was born I'm afraid. I read about it in history books!

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@OnlyRhonda Again, I am confused why you think the UK was in any position to be given special notice when their contribution ended in 2014. A handful of hypothetical trainers doesn't change that.

Again. the Ghani government threw a tantrum and refused to attend till the very last minute. That is on them.

Again, they knew since February 2020 this was happening. You can't pretend otherwise. You telling me that anyone with CNN or BBC knew in February 2020 but the UK and Afghan government was in the dark till this month? Please.

I know it is long gone but your attitude seems to suggest you are not aware of that. You seem to have an overinflated sense of the importance of the UK in global affairs.

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