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the lab leak theory is wild lol

it requires you to accept the chinese government made ALOT of big brain 200 IQ geopolitical gambles, and then it requires you to accept that they [i]all[/i] paid off lol.

>Developed the latest of the yearly coronavirus strains
>released it in their own country
>counted on westerners spreading it back to their countries
>western governments having such a breathtakingly incompetent response that huge swathes of the population got wiped out

even if it was true it, lol, at any point it could have been interrupted by any basic precautions in the west.
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SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
Why does it need to be intentional?

That's a pretty specific, and not necessarily accurate theory.

It is VERY contagious. The most likely scenario(assuming it broke out of the lab) is that it accidentally left on somebody's lab coat and spread that way to the Wuhan wet market and beyond.
NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster the theory isn't accurate to begin with bc theres basically no evidence to support it. its just speculation. sure it COULD have happened. anything COULD have happened. by why bring this up with no evidence? Other than to of course shift the narrative to it being china's fault somehow
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@NoahB There's some evidence it was manipulated, read the linked article for more info. Basically the virus has properties that make it extremely contagious and the change made to it, is exactly the change you would want to make if you were trying to design a very contagious virus. The chances of this happening in the wild are extremely remote.

Not concrete evidence, but certainly an interesting coincidence.

I'm not dismissing this out of hand as you seem to be.

https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/
NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster Im not dismissing it out of hand but I think the emphasis of this theory shouldn't be that its possible. many things are possible. It should be pushed back on though because its based on almost purely on speculation
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@NoahB Well perhaps that speculation should be followed up on, and pursued to its logical conclusion, agreed? Even if it escaped from the lab accidentally, we should know this so we can possibly prevent it in the future.

I mean, I don't believe for a minute that the Chinese will be sanctioned in any meaningful way should the virus be proven to have escaped their labs.

But knowing what happened is critical, and it will help us all be prepared to prevent this from happening again, should it have escaped the lab.
NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster like i said epidemiologists have been warning of a pandemic happening for 2+ decades. People forget they happen naturally and there is a pattern to them that is studied.
And yes, they specifically warned that it would probably be a corona virus varient.

I feel like people want to believe it was an escaped bio weapon because thats easier to accept than the complete and total failure of a government and society to handle a naturally occurring virus.

Plus, I feel the investigation into the chinese labs will not only be fruitless but its just going to be used as a political means to increase aggression towards China.
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@NoahB I dunno man. Of course we have been warned. Of course many, MANY of the worlds governments botched their response to Covid 19. Of course the possibility of this has been talked about for almost 2 decades now.

Why do you care if China gets some blowback on this? In my mind, that is the consequences of either their shitty response to ongoing concerns about their wet markets and new viruses coming from there, or their incompetence and cover up if it escaped the lab. They deserve whatever comes their way on this.

My pure speculation is that has to do with Trump and his supporters being "right" about this. It bugs you emotionally that he could be right about this, even if he was just throwing it out there to stir up trouble and at the time, he had no evidence demonstrating that it escaped a lab.

Just my 2 cents.
NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster why do I care? Because I saw this country go completely insane and throw itself into a pointless war on the basis of speculations, first hand. Were still dealing with those wars and I have personal friends whos bodies, minds, and lives were completely trashed because we went insane trying to deliver "what they had coming" on the winds of speculation. I feel this narrative will take on a similar shape should it be allowed to flourish.

But of course your presumption of me is I'm afraid of being wrong lol. Isnt it funny how somehow anyone who disagrees with trump and his supporters are doing so out of something as petty as pride? Couldn't be any other reason lol
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@NoahB What "war" are you talking about and how does this relate to Covid 19?

[quote]But of course your presumption of me is I'm afraid of being wrong lol. Isnt it funny how somehow anyone who disagrees with trump and his supporters are doing so out of something as petty as pride? Couldn't be any other reason lol
[/quote]

I don't hear you denying it! 😆
NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster
[quote]What "war" are you talking about and how does this relate to Covid 19?[/quote]
Iraq lol. I just explained how it relates. A ton of the infosec that was used to push that war was wrong, incorrect, or flat out lies and misinformation. Even republican leadership admits it was a big mistake. Trump even said so. This "China did it" theory will be used in a similar way to push a war with China in the future. I've already seen it deployed to that effect. Even you're like "They deserve whats coming to them" and you haven't provemn anything lol

[quote]I don't hear you denying it! 😆[/quote] need me to spell it out? lol okay, I'm denying it. Im not disagreeing out of pride. its dumb. and the people who are acting like its the gospel truth are dumb.
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@NoahB Ok I understand. Yes the Iraq war was based on lies, but a lot of our conflicts are. You aware of the Gulf of Tonkin incident that initiated our increased involvement in Vietnam?

We are not going to war with China even if we found out it escaped their lab. The Biden administration would not entertain that possibility and lean on it being an "accident" that he can assure us he spoke to the leader of China about, and that leader is taking this all "very seriously".

At best we would impose economic sanctions on them.
NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster Eh, better safe than sorry. Better to nip this in the bud now before it mutates into a talking point for saber-rattling war mongers. I certainly wouldn't put going to war past any president. Obama continued all the wars bush started after all
Elessar · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster The criticism against Trump (and affiliates) is on the fact that he tried to pass speculations as truth *without* presenting any evidence altogether - there is a stark distinction between "it must necessarily be natural" and "in absence of evidence of genetic manipulation, you can't say it's artificial". Back when he was in charge, the only document I've seen in favor of the lab hypothesis was a pathetic amateurish attempt at writing a paper called the "Yan report".
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@Elessar Sure, that's fair. You willing to admit the MSM conspired to shut down any speculation on this with a ridiculous and unearned sense of finality?

It wasn't just Trump saying this, there were multiple politicians such as Tom Cotton, Rand Paul, and Ted Cruz who also brought up the possibility and requested it be taken into consideration.

They were lambasted by the MSM, shamed and ignored.

Sounds to me like we should have at least looked into it at the time, and not presented as the situation was settled, and any sort of possible lab leak was [big][b]DEBUNKED[/b][/big].
Elessar · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster Meh, no, I've read enough articles both in support of the lab theory and against it throughout the entirety of 2020 and 2021 and just like Trump, Cruz, et al. no one presented any credible evidence altogether - all they shoved down people's throats was that "Yan report".

See, for instance (sep 2020):
https://nypost.com/2020/09/14/chinese-virologist-posts-report-claiming-covid-19-was-made-in-wuhan-lab/

If that was the only thing they had in support of the theory, thanks my ass that it kept getting "debunked".
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@Elessar Ok, well new information has been uncovered for the ignorant who aren't up to date. Read below. The crux of this is that it was discovered that the Covid 19 virus had a modification that made it super contagious. If you were to design a virus, this is exactly what you would want to do.
Additionally it is extremely unlikely this would happen spontaneously in nature.
That is why this is coming up again.

https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

Oh! And I thought of a couple of leftists who complained and cried when they got cancelled:

Chrissy Teigen and James Gunn.
NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster [quote]If you were to design a virus, this is exactly what you would want to do.[/quote]
you'd also want to do this if you yourself were a virus lol. You know how viruses work right? they perpetuate their existence via spread and mutations. and thats how they come out of the box from nature lol
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@NoahB Ok, well you were doing so well until that last strawman response. Curious if you read the article? Cuz if you did, not sure you got the jist.
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NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster i kinda skimmed it so I didn't read it. But i noticed a primary source is the state department, which, c'mon. We talked about this. The State department? bro, cmon. you know they'll just say anything
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@Elessar Oh I understand your point about Trump. However I was correcting your misinformed notion that that Yan report was the last word on this and it clearly is not.

You pretending you don't understand what I've written, or?
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@NoahB 🤣 You are going to take the word of the MSM over the State Department? Dude....🙄

I mean if you choose not to believe it, so be it, but that's your reasoning? A lazy dismissal because it came from the State Department? 🤨
NoahB · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster bro they told Colin Powell random aluminum tubes being sent to iraq was proof of nuclear armament. They'll say anything is suspicious to anyone who will listen.
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@NoahB Hm, and yet when Trump and other right wing politicians were pushing it, apparently you had no problem taking the MSM's coordinated assurances that it was all a conspiracy theory.

I mean, these guys also promoted the fiction of the weapons of mass destruction and yellow cake aluminum along with Colin Powell, yet you take their word about the Covid 19 lab leak?

Very convenient.
Elessar · 26-30, M
@SumKindaMunster My [i]notion[/i] is that the Yan report was (and is) crap, and that Trump was criticized for trying to push that crap as evidence, plain and simple. There isn't much to correct. That's the state of things, new genomic analyses not only came out much later (now), but also don't have anything to do with the Yan crap that was being pushed as evidence by Trump's minions back then.

It's not that if out of all the things Trump said one in a thousand turns out to be accurate he's automatically a visionary, even a broken clock reads the right time twice a day. Nor it justifies in any way pushing baseless accusations.
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@Elessar Uh huh. And putting aside your TDS, just for a moment here, have you read the link I provided? Any thoughts about the information it reveals?