Veganism has the unassailable moral high ground. Change my mind.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

I wish "virtue signaling" had never been coined because too often it's used to dismiss virtue.

False dichotomies and pseudo science aside, if there's an argument for why not eaten vegan when you have the choice is moral then i haven't heard it.

@Pikachu No, virtue signaling is entirely accurate here.


And thanks for proving my point. Just avoid criticism entirely and repeat "oh by the way I am holier then thou, because reasons."

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

Why do you think deploying that buzzword is appropriate in this instance?

And how an you reasonably characterize "I haven't heard a moral argument justifying not choosing to abstain from meat when it is an option" as "i'm holier than thou because reasons"?

As far as avoiding criticism, the only criticism you appear to have leveled thus far is virtue signally so i'm not sure how else to respond to that lol

And as for privilege i fully acknowledged in my OP and elsewhere that this is not a realistic option for everyone.

@Pikachu Because that is exactly what this is. It is more about impressing others then anything else.


I am not going to play your game and pretend pseudo science is a moral issue. People like Gweneth Paltrow like to distract from the junk science in Goop by claiming everything is about morality and ethics too.


I had a vegan (with a straight face) tell me there is no significant difference between human physiology and bovines.

@Pikachu It also pushes a very very toxic narrative that money and privilege equals moral superiority.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

I think you're operating under the false assumption that i'm a vegan.
I'm not.
I'm a hypocrite because i don't have the courage of my convictions.

I'm not peddling pseudo science, i'm not making irrational claims about humans and cows.
I'm holding the position that inflicting suffering on animals where it is not necessary is not a morally defensible position and thus far you are proving me right.
Can you speak to that?

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

[quote]It also pushes a very very toxic narrative that money and privilege equals moral superiority.[/quote]

I am very much opposed to that idea.
I think i have made very clear that i consider the [i]unnecessary[/i] suffering of animals for food to be immoral.
That is to say for people who do have the privilege of choosing i think it is immoral to make the choice of suffering on the basis that one enjoys the taste.

@Pikachu And again you are positioning all of this on an entirely false dichotomy either way.

It is entirely a false dilemma.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

If i am then i don't mean to.
Can you help me out by stating explicitly what you feel is the false dichotomy i'm presenting?

@Pikachu Either way it is poor shaming anyone who doesn't have the luxury to make their food political.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

[quote]Either way it is poor shaming anyone who doesn't have the luxury to make their food political.[/quote]

I don't think so.
I agree that it is a position of privilege to be able to make this choice and i don't shame anyone who does not have that freedom.

@Pikachu [quote] I don't think so.
I agree that it is a position of privilege to be able to make this choice and i don't shame anyone who does not have that freedom.[/quote]


The problem is when you frame things in moral absolutes that is exactly what you are doing.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

Now that sort of seems like virtue signaling lol
It seems we're drawing the discussion away from the moral argument of choosing meat and onto the unfairness of being poor.

But i'm still looking for clarification on the previous point.
What do you feel is the false dichotomy i've set up? I don't think i have framed this as a moral absolute. I think i have gone out of my way to communicate that i believe that this is a relative moral argument.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

This really does feel like a series of criticisms for positions i do not hold lol

@Pikachu I am suggesting the switch to "it is conditional" is moving the goalposts after the fact.


Actually that is exactly the argument you made. Your entire premise falls apart if you allow for other options to even be possible. You have to make that false dichotomy for your entire premise to even work.

@Pikachu This moral dilemma can't even work unless you reduce everything to a binary.

@Pikachu Also the framing is still a problem. Because you are telling people who don't have the privilege to make food political. "What you are doing is immoral but I will give you a pass."


Making this a moral issue by definition requires black and white thinking.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

[quote]I am suggesting the switch to "it is conditional" is moving the goalposts after the fact.
[/quote]

...except that it's not switching anything because it was part of my originally described position...
Not sure how we're not clear on that yet...

[quote]You have to make that false dichotomy for your entire premise to even work.[quote][/quote][/quote]

Just to be absolutely clear, which false dichotomy is this? The vegan vs factory farm thing?

[quote]This moral dilemma can't even work unless you reduce everything to a binary.[/quote]

How do you figure?
Premise: It is morally wrong to choose to cause suffering to an animal if you don't have to.

How does that preclude a moral argument?

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

[quote] "What you are doing is immoral but I will give you a pass."
[/quote]

I'm no great shakes at philosophy but if someone steals because they want that pair of sunglasses i consider that morally wrong and if someone steals bread to feed their family, i don't have an issue with that.
Maybe that's patronizing but either way this feels like a red herring.

@Pikachu Yes. If you allow for any possible options besides factory farms or vegan your entire argument falls apart because it depends on that binary.


[quote]How do you figure?
Premise: It is morally wrong to choose to cause suffering to an animal if you don't have to.[/quote]


Again because your entire argument requires a binary of factory farming or veganism to hold up.


And again it is making a false binary a basis for moral condemnation of people who make different choices.

@Pikachu [quote]I'm no great shakes at philosophy but if someone steals because they want that pair of sunglasses i consider that morally wrong and if someone steals bread to feed their family, i don't have an issue with that.
Maybe that's patronizing but either way this feels like a red herring.[/quote]



I think part of the problem is you seem to confuse morals and ethics for one.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

Oh i'm absolutely using morals in the colloquial sense. But i think we both understand the concept under discussion.