Looks like Joe "I'm a West Virginia democrat" Manchin doesn't wanna represent West Virginia.

@Heartlander That's exactly what was said over and over when the Aussies did it. And then it...y'know, didn't happen.

@BlueMetalChick Yep, give people a decent wage and they spend it. That's why our government has also handed out a few bonus payments.

@Bushranger They'll tell you that the billionaire class DOESN'T hoard their money but that the working class does lol

@BlueMetalChick Yeah, sure, lol. But poor people have much less disposable income, so they spend less. Looks like they are hoarding, but in reality they just don't have enough to spend on luxuries. Give them enough to go out and spend and they will. Perhaps if we started taxing the rich properly, there would be more money in the system.

@Bushranger Laying the cost of rescuing people from poverty on other people that would hire them would result in only the rich being able to afford to do that. We see the result of that in big city ghettos now where city have to go shopping for companies with deep pockets to move back into the cities. It's not working. Minimum wages do more to create poverty than prevent it.

@Heartlander The minimum wage in Australia is higher than the US and most businesses seem to be able to cope. One of the biggest problems that I've noticed is the rents charged by some shopping centers. They seem to be more of an issue for businesses than wages.

But as I said before, if poor people are given enough money to have disposable income, they will spend it which can have benefits for the whole economy. Here's a link that explains the multiplier effect https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1948/economics/the-multiplier-effect/

@Heartlander [quote]Laying the cost of rescuing people from poverty on other people that would hire them would result in only the rich being able to afford to do that.[/quote]
Once again, that was said repeatedly when the Australian government raised their minimum wage. And then it didn't happen.

[quote]We see the result of that in big city ghettos now where city have to go shopping for companies with deep pockets to move back into the cities.[/quote]
Since when are cities shopping for companies to move back into the cities? Even if that WERE true, you're only acknowledging the problem to a greater extent. The argument there is "if we make companies pay their workers more, then they'll move to another area of the country where they can pay their workers less." So, don't let them pay their workers less no matter where in the country they move. That should be pretty obvious.

[quote]Minimum wages do more to create poverty than prevent it.[/quote]
You ALMOST have a point. The countries with the highest median wages actually don't have minimum wage laws, and that's solely because the entirety of the work force is unionized. As such, the unions secure higher pay for the workers than minimum wage laws do.

But unless you're suggesting that we unionize all labor in the USA (and to be clear, I'd actually be with you on that) then you're about as off target on this one as can be. Suggesting that minimum wage laws don't prevent companies from underpaying their workers is abjectly naive.

@BlueMetalChick While I agree with most of your post, I disagree with you on unions. Unions not only negotiate for higher wages, but also (and I believe more importantly) better, safer working conditions. I've noticed that unions have declined in Australia and working conditions have deteriorated. People are working longer hours, often without financial compensation, and are fearful of losing their jobs if they don't.

@Bushranger You are correct, but my comment about nations with the highest wages being mostly unionized wasn't in reference to Australia. I was more referring to places like Finland or Denmark.

@Bushranger Making better quality of life services available to the poor would be a better idea, IMHO. Forcing employers to care for every human need of their employees serves to thin the ranks of employers, leaving just well funded and financial savvy employers in the game. Products and services become unaffordable. In economic downturns, when some those deep pocket employers falter, we are left with nothing to fill the vacuum. Look at all the failed "factory towns" in the US, or the industries that have been exported to China, Japan, etc. Or look at our gutted inner cities.

Australia has historically managed its poverty rate through tight immigration policies. In its attempts to recreate a UK type culture, its immigration policies intentionally excluded non-white, non-European immigrant. It may get a deceptive boost with a high minimum wage, but in the long run, the Australian economy will come to resemble the UK economy.

@Heartlander Then what you're advocating for is not paying full time workers enough money that they are able to meet bare minimum requirements without government assistance. That is not a sustainable system. It isn't sustainable right now even.

@BlueMetalChick You are ignoring the part about someone in China being paid $2 an hour while his/her counterpart in the US will be paid $15 per hour. Then when the US consumers go to COSTCO or Walmart to buy something they pick the product made in China because its cheaper and not the more expensive product made in the US.

Cheaper goods and services make the paycheck go further. Forcing US employers to raise the cost of production will make US goods and services even more unaffordable and make "Made in China" even more preferable.

@Heartlander [quote]its immigration policies intentionally excluded non-white, non-European immigrant.[/quote]

Yes, another sad and embarrassing part of our history. And one that I'm sad to say some people in my country would like to see brought back. But the the White Australia policy began to be lifted in the 1940s and was essentially gone by the 1970s. This site gives a good outline of the White Australia policy https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/end-of-white-australia-policy

I just checked and Australia was number 2 on the World Atlas list of highest minimum wages as of 2019 (https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-countries-with-the-highest-minimum-wages.html). And I think we have other working conditions such as paid leave and compulsory superannuation that workers in the US don't. Also, don't forget that a number of US companies moved their manufacturing overseas even though you had a low minimum wage.

We are having a similar discussion over here in regard to increasing welfare payments. The principle argument in favour is that welfare recipients will be able to spend more on discretionary items. Remember the multiplier effect?

But thanks for a good discussion, I'm enjoying it.

@BlueMetalChick Wasn't a criticism, just me waving the red flag again 🤣

@Bushranger My former college roommate immigrated to Australia in about 1970 or 71. Super nice guy. Australia's gain, our loss.

Unfortunately I completely loss track of him, and I imagine that he's still there. I would love to hear about how his experience went.

@Heartlander See how open our immigration policies are, we'll even take Americans, lol.

@Heartlander So then, the point you're trying to make is that we can't pay workers enough for them to survive because if we do then the companies will just move to China.

So, don't let them. Shut them out of US markets if they outsource. The Canadians did it and it worked.