For men who are pro life: what would you say to being told that you don't have a right over your own body? Because that's what you're telling women.

@Phantome

[quote]I don't think Pro-life means telling a woman she has no right over her body[/quote]

But that's [i]exactly[/i] what it means. Whatever reasons you ascribe to it, whatever label you give the abortion what you are demanding is that a woman NOT have the right to decide what happens with her own body.

Ignoring the fact that carrying a pregnancy to terms is a big god damn deal with many effects on health and the body (sometimes permanent) No person has the right to another person's body whether they need it or not.
If you need my kidney to live you still have no right to it.
If you need me to donate my blood or else you die, you still have no right to it.

@Pikachu I agree, but it's the unborn who has to suffer death because of the inconvenience the mother feels even though it's the most natural thing in the world. I don't agree that the mother even though it's her body has the right to murder the innocent.

@Phantome

[quote] but it's the unborn who has to suffer death[/quote]

Yup.
No one is saying it's a decision to be taken lightly. Don't mistake my stance on the right of a woman to bodily autonomy as a dismissal of the seriousness of the issue.

But a no person has the right to make use of another person's body and i suspect you agree with this in every other case besides a pregnancy.
A child does not have a right to a woman's kidney. Why does a fetus have a right to her uterus?
You're attempting to give not human rights to a fetus be SPECIAL rights. Can you sufficiently justify why it deserves SPECIAL rights?

@Pikachu [quote]No one is saying it's a decision to be taken lightly. [/quote]

Murder never is.

@Pikachu yes, the child does not claim the woman uterus. That's just a passage to life. The woman can live a healthy life afterwards in almost ever case. But to borrow a kidney is not comparable to just passing though it. So no special rights are asks for. The right to live by the innocent is paramount for pro-lifers.

@Phantome

[quote]But to borrow a kidney is not comparable to just passing though it.[/quote]

Of course it is. You can live a healthy life with one kidney. Or you can live a healthy life if you give up part of your liver.
But under what circumstance would you as a man accept that ANOTHER person had the right to MAKE you give up part of your liver or a kidney?

[quote]The right to live[/quote]

We all have a right to live. Non of us have a right to live by making use of another person's body. So yeah, that would constitute SPECIAL rights.
Can you sufficiently justify why a fetus deserves SPECIAL rights?

@Pikachu [quote]You can live a healthy life with one kidney. Or you can live a healthy life if you give up part of your liver.[/quote]

You can live a healthy life after birth and pregnancy too.

@Budwick

...and?

@Pikachu [quote]...and?[/quote]

And, aborted babies can not live a healthy life.

@Budwick

true...and?

@Pikachu all life has to make use of the female womb. That's not a special right. It is only a borrowed space until it is born. If it 's an inconvenience for the mother she still does not have the right to murder. I cannot envisage the mother having the right to murder a child just because she says she owns the womb the baby is growing in. Life is much too precious.

@Phantome So if a dialysis patient needs a kidney, and you're a match, should the government force you to donate one of yours? Because your convenience isn't more important than another person's life.

@Phantome

[quote]all life has to make use of the female womb. That's not a special right. [/quote]

Agreed. The SPECIAL right is making use of a woman's body without her consent.

[quote]. Life is much too precious.[/quote]

So if i need one of your kidney's to live and you're the only one who can give it to me, i have the RIGHT to your body?
Let's say we were in a car accident and you hurt me and i needed part of your liver, i know own that piece of your liver and you have no choice but to give it to me because my life is precious, yes?

@LeopoldBloom no. I never said they should be made to donate a kidney. How does that compare to a healthy mother murdering an innocent?

@LeopoldBloom Your metaphor is pretty fucked up.

Who is the mother? - The kidney? The donor? The government?
Who is the unborn child?
Are you the inconvenience?

Your metaphor is pretty fucked up.

@Phantome By not donating one of your kidneys to someone who needs it, you're basically murdering them. This is no different from a woman not "donating" the use of her uterus to an embryo. Why is your convenience more important than someone else's life? Kind of hypocritical for you to say a woman has to do something that you're not required to do.

@Budwick You're either stupid or being deliberately obtuse, so I'll spell it out.

The fetus needs the mother's uterus to survive.
The dialysis patient needs your kidney to survive.

You want the government to force the woman to allow the fetus the use of her uterus, even if she would prefer not to do so.
Therefore, the government should force you to donate one of your kidneys to save the life of a dialysis patient, even if you would prefer not to do so.

Please explain how these are different, especially if the dialysis patient is your own child. Maybe you're not aware of this, but legally you cannot be forced to even donate blood to save your child's life. Cf. [i]McFall v. Shimp[/i].

@LeopoldBloom [quote]By not donating one of your kidneys to someone who needs it, you're basically murdering them[/quote]

That's an interesting twist on reality Hazel.
Most donors I know prefer to look at how they helped someone else in dire need - how they gave a gift - a precious gift.

Even as precious as the gift of a kidney is, it pales in comparison to the gift of life represented by the unborn child.

So, did the woman in your scenario just suddenly become pregnant? She had nothing to do with the pregnancy?

[You're gonna have to twist your false equivalency further I think,]

@LeopoldBloom [quote]Maybe you're not aware of this, but legally you cannot be forced to even donate blood to save your child's life. Cf. McFall v. Shimp.[/quote]

Why am I not surprised that you would know that?

@Budwick If donating a kidney is so "precious," why haven't you done that already? The need for kidneys is greater than for any other donated organ, and many dialysis patients are dying because there aren't enough of them. So get off your high horse with the "sanctity of life" because you obviously don't give a fuck. All you want is to punish women for having recreational sex because you think that's against your so-called "religion." What a pile of bullshit.

I consider people like you to be moral degenerates.

@LeopoldBloom [quote]why haven't you done that already?[/quote]

I have.

[quote]
I consider people like you to be moral degenerates[/quote]
I see.
A Christian, pro-life, kidney donor - a moral degenerate.
I guess I'll have to try harder.

@Budwick You donated a kidney to a stranger? I call bullshit.

You're not pro-life, you're merely in favor of forcing women to give birth. You have plenty of other positions that are anti-life.

As for you being a Christian, if the definition of that is "someone who calls themselves a Christian," I suppose you qualify. But you're no more a follower of Jesus than I am.

@LeopoldBloom [quote]you're no more a follower of Jesus than I am.[/quote]

Well, you don't believe in Jesus, so you would have an awful time following him. And, you've discarded me, so I couldn't even help you follow Him.

You're fucked!
Especially if you need a kidney, and I happen to match!
Maybe your dream government would force me to give my last one to you!
You hang on to that dream Hazel.
It's the best thing you have going for you.

@Budwick Yeah, you're going to donate your remaining kidney. That makes sense, especially at your age. You're not even a candidate to donate.

You're predictably not answering the question. If you did donate a kidney and aren't lying, hats off to you. But I was asking if you support the government forcing people to donate their kidneys at gunpoint the way you support the government forcing women to give birth at gunpoint.

I'm not exaggerating. Here in Georgia, the wonderful Christians in our state legislature passed a law making abortion after six weeks a capital offense. I'm sure when that gets to the Supreme Court, Judge Beer Keg and Judge Handmaid will gleefully uphold it. So you'll get your fondest wish - women being executed for having recreational sex.

How is your "religion" different from ISIS again?

@LeopoldBloom [quote]Yeah, you're going to donate your remaining kidney. That makes sense, [/quote]

That's why you're fucked!