This is how you know the political left is completely unhinged...

@LeopoldBloom pathetic ... You all think just because I'm dogging the political left that I must be a trump supporter.

That's where you're exposed like little greedy adgenda pushing hypocrites...

Stop being anti-trump and be DEMOCRATS.

But Democrats never were loyal to anything and everyone else knows it.

@GardenSage Can Americans be their own form of Democrat? Or do they have to fit your version of it? So that it's easier for you to have a discussion? It's always easier to discuss stuff with the imaginairy version of it all.

I find it pretty strange that you complain that other stereotype you after writing all this :

[quote]Democrats have no loyalty to any morals, principles, or people. They will change their minds and their word a thousand times if They don’t like the temperature of public perception.[/quote]

you go GardenGnome!

@Kwek00 well I can’t adress every democrat independently. That’s absurd. If it doesn’t pertain to you, state it, perhaps add a quip about what makes you different and move on. Thanks.

But I’m addressing a majority here.

Oh by the way. Death to PC culture.

@GardenSage The majority? You have studies for that? Or did you just took a characterisation/demonisation from the meme culture, internalised it, and normalised it? Are you living the meme GardenGnome?

Studies? Lol. Are you going to pretend EVERY DEMOCRAT wasn’t against Iraq pt 2?

Please. Stop playing stupid games.

Btw I like gnomes! :) @Kwek00

@GardenSage Why wouldn't every conservative be against Iraq pt 2?

It pretty much went against all the rules of engagement that there are on an international level?

1. Iraq posed not threat to the US, there were never anny signs of WMD
2. It was active regime change (which is like a super big no-no) in the UN

There are also good reasons why active regime change is seen as bad... because once nations start changing regimes, then which regime is actually save? It also undermines the idea of actual humanitarian interventions, because abusing interventions to get regime change just makes people weary and advocate against it. Even when it should be done according to the UN rules that they adopt (like syria, which is actually a great case for "the responsibility to protect" adopted in 2005).

Even tough big forces sin against this rule, it's almost never done so blatantly openly like in Iraq, by a country that often sees itself as the protector of western values. Both George and Tony should be on trial for war crimes, but since one of the big nations isn't backing up this claim (because they were the vilains in the story) people just don't enforce the law. If anny smaller country would have done what the US did in 2003, the international community would just put them on trial. It's a sickening thing to be honest, and using that as an argumentation for annything, then that sounds pretty dumb to me?

@GardenSage It’s a different argument to say we should never have gone over there in the first place. But now that we’re there, we owe a debt to our allies and shouldn’t cut and run, especially when it wasn’t costing us anything to stay there.

The only rational explanation for the [b]sudden surprise[/b] pullout is that Erdogan must have made an offer to Trump that benefits him personally, because even Trump’s supporters in the Senate are pissed off. There was no other advantage to doing this.

@Kwek00 stop hiding.

Are you for American involvement in the squabbles I the middle East or not?

I'm not here to debate to morality of history. This post is pointing out the hypocrisy of the POLITICAL LEFT, today. Im not here to pander to your specific snowflake needs.

So are you for it or not?

Answer the question or move on.

@LeopoldBloom every anti-war liberal is suddenly a military expert...

This is fucking rich.

@GardenSage I wrote a pretty lengthy idea on the Turkye situation honestly. You can find it on one of Georges' threads.

I don't believe in "involving" just to be "involved". I believe in reasons for involvement, reasons which are based on agreements and morals. And I believe that evaluating every situation by it diffrences is important, since cultural sensitivities in every case are diffrent.

You are just pointing at your own version of the political left. You are creating a characacture and then vomitting all over it. Also vomitting in the way that most people on the left are exactly like the character you build for yourself. You are pretty much fighting your own delusional.

In this particulair case... I don't know what the best answer is. Because the situation is pretty difficult and complex. Have you really studied it gardengnome? well enough to actually have an informed opinion?

@Kwek00 so you want me to judge what I think is right about a conflict between turkey and the kurds.. is that correct?

Are you in the military or would you ever join it?

@GardenSage It's only partially a "Kurd-Turkye" thing... there is a lot more going on over there then just that.

Backing up the Kurds because of them fighting in a joined fight with ISIS doesn't really make sense either. Since the Kurds have their own agenda, and the agenda of the Kurds is creating a new country. Hopefully splitting up a part of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkye. Which is why Turkye is pretty much not in favor of it.

Turkye also has a border with a warzone. Which also is filled with militias that are specifically friendly to the PKK, which Turkye (and actually every western nation that I know) consider a "terrorist organisation". Just because they have performed terrorist action to cut off that "Kurdish-part" of Turkye and add it to the big dream of "Kurdistan". So they want to create a space between those Kurdish troops and their border, that's also why NATO didn't go to hard on them. Also the UN had some sympathies for what they are trying to do. The problem is more how they are doing it. The question is if the Kurds would have agreed to move away from the Turkish border, I honestly think that is an illusion, but Turkye should have at least exhausted the diplomatic option. Which they haven't.

Turkye is also harboring 3,6 milion refugees, which they want to replace into the new safe-zone to relieve their own country a bit. Erdogan also wants to muster public support, since he's not doing so well after the last elections. And Turkye in general is against the Kurds and also wants the refugees out since it does put a certain pressure on society. Harboring them on soil which Kurds live on however, has a prett nasty taste to it. Specially since the Kurds have no voice in it, and are stepped over by everyone in pretty much every conflict there is in the region. They have also been scapegoated by every country they are living in. And now they have to accept a big band of where they live to be taken by Turkye who wants to harbor 3,6 milion refugees on there. Most of them are Sunni Arabs if the sources that I read are correct. So that's a serious demographical change.

But no one is really innocent in this conflict, except for maybe some Syrian-Rebels that are just trying to get Assad off. But who is talking about them annymore? We didn't care that much in 2011, and we are still not talking about them now, because most outlets already see them as "defeated".

@GardenSage Since you are asking a lot of questions from other people... why not answer them yourself instead of creating strawmen to fight at? At least the conversation would have some substance.

@Kwek00 sure. I served active duty in the US Navy and served in the North Arabian Gulf where I received a CAR for an incident in which i was part of a group tasked to protect 2 oil terminals.

You may proceed revealing your position now. Please answer the questions.

@Kwek00 you want me, an American, to judge what to do in this conflict... Just being clear that's what you're asking of me..?

And have you, or would you volunteer for the armed forces?

@GardenSage
I actually just asked you if you noticed your own hypocrisy when you complained about stereotyping. And then I posted your comment just under that. Just like last time, you have a pretty big problem when it comes to self reflection.

Then you asked this:

[quote]re you going to pretend EVERY DEMOCRAT wasn’t against Iraq pt 2?[/quote]

Which I answered. Like I said, I would find it strange if ANNYONE would be against this. But hey, always good to hear some other opinion.

Then you asked this:

[quote]Are you for American involvement in the squabbles I the middle East or not?[/quote]

Which I also answered. That this particulair case needs to be looked at for it's all peculair nature. That's not dancing around, it's just a really tough cookie over there. I really wonder who has a clean cut answer, because most annalysis I see are just people that complain about stuff, but don't give an an alternative for anny of the problems that are out there. The best think I heared was a professor who hoped the russian diplomats would solve it. I guess we have to cross our fingers for that, because they are actually the guys with the most influence in that particulair place.

I also said that we should have intervened in 2011. We are 8 years too late. And I also said why we didn't do that, it was mostly because of internal divisions and because of Russia.


[quote]so you want me to judge what I think is right about a conflict between turkey and the kurds.. is that correct?[/quote]

<- Well at least then we would have something to talk about right? Instead of listening to your version of what a leftist is. It would make a way more intresting conversation.

[quote]you want me, an American, to judge what to do in this conflict... Just being clear that's what you're asking of me..?[/quote]

<- Yes... I was pretty clear the first time... but I'll say "yes" again.


[quote]And have you, or would you volunteer for the armed forces?[/quote]

<- No, and if I would... then Their should at least be a good cause to fight for. This was actually the only question that I didn't answered.

@Kwek00 just loling at this in retrospect.

*lolz

@GardenSage you high?

content is the word... a warm feeling Cascades over me as I relish in your pompous idiocy @Kwek00

@GardenSage what ever makes you happy gnome

Lol feeble insult man... that’s your go-to?

Pretty week stuff skweek@Kwek00

@GardenSage Just say what you think was idiotic so we can have some substance to talk about gnome.

Your blind faith in far left philosophy skweek @Kwek00

@GardenSage That's it? After 3 hours we get just another ambiguous claim? Fuck life must be really simple for a gardengnome

You talk in circles skweek. The original post is about the hypocrisy of your philosophy. This is amusing to me. It is just that simple.

Lol. @Kwek00