Politics & News

Only logged in members can reply and interact with the post.
Join SimilarWorlds for FREE »

How can Britain's divisions be healed?

The country is massively divided on Brexit and these divisions are only getting deeper. Here is when Owen Jones, a prominent left-wing Guardian journalist, went to interview people at a rally for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party. He got insulted and shouted at by almost everyone he was filmed interviewing. The main points made by these people were about democracy but ironically almost nobody tried to engage him in rational discourse and one person even said that the Guardian newspaper should be banned:

[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sltIisHseA]

The mood at the Brexit rally was one of right-wing anti-establishment anger fuelled by tribal bitterness against anything that they disagree with. Obviously, its a rally and it's the hard-core rather than the majority of party support, but they are the hard-core of a party which is polling very well.

The Brexit Party won't win a UK General Election, but they will probably push the Conservative Party into supporting a no-deal Brexit. Boris Johnson, now the clear front-runner to replace May, has already said that Britain must leave the EU by October 'with or without a deal'. There is no deal that could conceivably be negotiated that would appease the majority of Brexit voters.

The anger and sense of betrayal felt by the people at the Brexit rally is only likely to increase. If the unscrupulous and caddish Johnson walks back on his no-deal promise then Farage and our right-wing tabloids will further inflame these tensions. If there is a no-deal Brexit then there will be a huge recession and people will feel betrayed again. This anger could go in different places but some of it will go further down the well of the nationalist right.

Top | Newest First | Oldest First

RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M

I've been away from the UK for quite a while now and probably haven't been paying as much attention as I should have. I've also watched with horror these last two years what has happened to the US and its people. Are we really as a nation headed down the same road ? Watching that it's hard not to conclude that we are.

Here's a snippet from an editorial today in The New York Times ;

"A leadership contest will begin in May’s Conservative Party and the winner will become prime minister, with the task of resolving the Brexit debacle. Her most likely successor, given the extent of rabid pro-Brexit sentiment among Tories, is Boris Johnson, the unscrupulous, ramshackle, flip-flopping, dissembling former foreign secretary, whose uncertain relationship with the truth and unwavering narcissism resemble Donald Trump’s.

“He’s got what it takes,” Trump, who will visit Britain early in June, has ominously proclaimed of Johnson. The adulation has been reciprocated. Both are men gifted in the dark arts. "

Sometimes I have to pinch myself to remind me that this is really happening. I'm voting tomorrow here in France and I will be voting for Macron's party to help counter the threat from the populists here. They might win in France still but across Europe people are waking up to the existential threat these fuckers present. Let's hope 2019 represents the year when they peaked and they soon slink back into the shadows.

SW-User

@RodionRomanovitch sadly I don't have your confidence. It is like the 1930s all over again. My grandfather and dad will be turning in thier graves.

RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M

@SW-User They just got turned back in Holland , let's see what the rest of the results bring.

SW-User

@RodionRomanovitch sadly I'm about to lose the right to move there. But go back to 1820 I'm still in same parish I can't see leaving the UK whatever path it goes. Likely I'll spend my last year's locked up for protesting for the rights that will continue to be eroded by these people.

SW-User

I wish I knew but I feel that there will be at least another decade of this.

1. We leave no deal.... Economic disaster
2. We leave with deal. End 2020 we're back here, no long term solution in place so temporary deal extended another row about deal or no deal now complicated by Irish backstop
On future
Scotland vote on independence.
Issues over Irish border as we create separate trade deals with non EU countries and diverge on legislation will mean either big differences to UK or NI considered joining Eire. Return to troubles in Ireland.
People question UK position on UN security Council. We slide down G20 league table.
Immigration goes negative and we fail to staff NHS and other public services.
UK EU parties build like UKIP did esp taking middle votes from Labour and Lib Dems even tories.
We start to negotiate rejoining but with old privileges. Denied that by EU. Arguments continue for years to come. I'll probably be destitute and dead by then.

View 1 more replies »

SW-User

@Burnley123 generations it'll take generations I feel. So much damage done in so many ways.

Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M

@SW-User This is my view. Can't decide whether Farage is a mischief maker or the 'acceptable face' of the far right.
But if these or any clone of these groups attain political power i really fear for the next twenty years.
Economy; business; healthcare; pensions, it'll all go down the pan.

Frank52 · 70-79, M

@Picklebobble2 The only part of your point I'd take issue with is the idea of an 'acceptable face' of the far right. But I know what you mean and you too have put it in quotation marks so I understand it is not intended literally.

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

Which divisions did you have in mind? The Brexit ones. The age ones (closely related to Brexit) The economic ones? Or the racial ones? That is a fragmented nation and it will need to find its own level and a whole new position over time.

View 11 more replies »

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@room101 Agreed. I speak of those "problems" as being the real divisions. Otherwise they are just differences.

room101 · 51-55, M

@whowasthatmaskedman The UK has all sorts of real divisions. It's made up of four different countries. It is a an absolute melting pot of ethnicities and races. We have the North-South economic divide. And so on and so forth.

I think that we can agree that there has been, in the last five years (if not longer), an increased focus on those divisions throughout the Western world. That's what's given rise to the various right wing populist movements. It's something that Bannon and his ilk have exploited.

It's also something that the EU has underestimated for a very long time. In their march for creating a unified Europe, they have ignored the strength and importance of cultural identity.

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@room101 We can absolutely agree on all of that.

MartinII · 70-79, M

Two points if I may. First, I think the anger and division over Brexit that you describe is at least partly a symptom rather than the main cause. The underlying division, I suggest, is between the non-metropolitan working and rural classes, on the one hand, and on the other the “liberal” establishment, which includes much of the Conservative Party as well as the nominally left-wing parties. The former category feel themselves ignored, neglected and insulted by the latter. The Brexit referendum seemed like a chance to gain their revenge. They took it, but, as they see it, they have been betrayed.

Second, why do you think a no deal Brexit would be such a disaster? I know you think it would cause a recession, but why, on what evidence? And even if you are right, recessions, while sometimes painful, happen from time to time and countries usually emerge stronger after them. The other day, in the online comment columns of The Times, I pointed out to a former Cabinet Secretary and former friend of mine that his assertion that no deal would be a disaster was a mere assertion, with no supporting argument. Of course I got no answer. I’m sure you can do better.

View 4 more replies »

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@MartinII This video shows what Nigel's real views are:

What Nigel Farage really thinks

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2014/nov/12/what-nigel-farage-really-thinks-ukip-video?

Its as I was saying: the real desires of Brexiteer politicians are often not advertised and i do see this as duplicitous.

As of Johnson, I don't think he has any strong beliefs beyond his own desire to be PM. I don't think he really even believes in Brexit but he knows backing it helps his career.

SW-User

@MartinII to go to your point of "evidence" here's, for me, party of the crux of the problem.
Anything is a prediction, an estimate that will be proved right or wrong only in the fullness of time. One of my problems with the leave position from day one of the campaign was what is leave? In out customs Union in out single market or just wto.

I'd point out even ukips position had always been we'd negotiate a withdrawal agreement. That was both major leave campaign positions in the referendum.

Now evidence. Show me another g20 nation ouside an aligned local trading block? Show me any developed nation actually? Show me any country in the world trading only on wto rules? I've only found Moldova but they have a deal to sell steal into EU markets without tarrifs.

We're conducting a massive economic and social experiment never tried before with the world's 7th largest economy. Are we truly understanding or appreciating that risk?

MartinII · 70-79, M

@SW-User Those are good and fair points. I certainly agree it’s a risk. On the other side, I’d argue first, that there’s no example to show it won’t work - as you say, we’re the 7th largest economy and there’s no-one else of comparable size working solely under wto rules. And second, I’m sure we wouldn’t be on our own for long. For a start, the EU would want us as trading partners, and having left we’d be in a much stronger position to negotiate favourable terms.

This comment is hidden. Show Comment

View 14 more replies »

This comment is hidden. Show Comment

MartinII · 70-79, M

@Burnley123 The Guardian used to be a Liberal, and then a liberal, newspaper. I read it daily for about 50 years. But it has become a left-wing newspaper many of whose journalists have nothing but contempt for their opponents. It’s not unique in that - there is no UK newspaper that I would regard as truly liberal and open-minded. Nevertheless, it’s a sad decline.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@MartinII It's still very liberal rather than left. At times it has been ridiculously critical of Jeremy Corbyn. A minority of its big columnists are outright left though and of course, this includes Owen Jones.

SatanBurger · 36-40, F

Owen: "What are you fighting for"

Woman: "To get rid of you."

Meanwhile she's OK with this:

[b]http://fubarradio.com/politics/stupidly-offensive-things-nigel-farage-has-said/[/b]

Another Woman: "We're just like Russia."

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

First worlders are so stupid, they really must have been living under a rock in order to equate Britain with Russia 🤣

Like I'm sorry are Russian nationalists going to the voting booths to beat the crap out of anyone voting aka voter intimidation 🤷‍♀️

Then no stupid twat, Britain isn't anywhere near Russia.

God that was the most dumbest thing I've heard in my life.

View 3 more replies »

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SatanBurger The video even has some alt-right teenaged dweebs with conspiracy theories. These little shits are saying that teachers 'indoctrinate then with labour values'. Like teaching maths and grammar is cultural Marxism. I work in education and my politics has zero to do with the job.

SatanBurger · 36-40, F

@Burnley123 Nigel Farage has said some really ludicrous things and if he's their hero, what most likely happened was that they opened their big mouth in a public school and got detention or beat up lmao.

So their parents of said brats who most likely rot their brain with this nonsense to begin with, told them that it was "leftist tyranny" or some other low IQ crap. Whatever means necessary to not take the blame for being an a-hole, much easier to blame cultural Marxism instead of realizing they're a homophobic racist piece of crap 👍

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SatanBurger I'd imagine it was EXACTLY like that.

"I got a bad mark in my English exam, it must be because of Cultural Marxism. Whaaaa!"

TheConstantGardener · 56-60, M

I don't think that all those who will vote for the Brexit Party are right-wing.

View 2 more replies »

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@TheConstantGardener Yeah and I come from one too. I also live in a remain part of Manchester and work in a leave area.

This is why for a long time I supported the compromise stance of the Labour leadership: honouring the referendum result but not having a hard Brexit like the Tories want.

Problem is, this is not a viable position anymore because neither side wants to compromise. Labour leavers switched from ukip back to Labour in 2017 but now they are in favour of no deal. Labour remainers feel 'betrayed' by Corbyn and are voting either Green or Lib Dem.

My two biggest desires are to have a Labour government and to stop a no deal Brexit. Unfortunately a compromise position won't get either of those things so I think Labour will be forced to pick a side. And that will be remain/second ref.

The Labour leavers were about a quarter of our vote in 2017. Some of them will come with us if we make an economic offer that is good. Some won't though and there is no way of getting them back, unfortunately.

TheConstantGardener · 56-60, M

@Burnley123 I voted Green for the first time, as opposed to Labour.🤷🏻‍♂️

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@TheConstantGardener So did plenty of other people I know. I once considered joining the Green Party but that was literally just before Corbyn. I also voted and campaigned for remain.

Labour will lose a section of votes if it goes for a second ref but it will lose more if it doesn't.

HootyTheNightOwl

Lol, we've had nothing but doom and gloom over Brexit ever since the referendum... and those clowns in Downing Street can't even find any sort of agreement if it bit them - it's got to be either no deal or revoke. There's no other way that it's going to be solved.

View 4 more replies »

HootyTheNightOwl

Boris is something of a loose cannon, though... if he gets in, it could be akin to Trump take two.

Odds are that they may never get back a good sized chunk of voters because they've lost hope in the political system as a whole between Brexit and Universal Credit robbing the poor.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@MartinII This is the problem that the Tories have. They have a huge division between their political base and their leadership caste on the Brexit issue.

HootyTheNightOwl

@MartinII @Burnley123 That's why i suggested that the next Prime Minister may end up revoking - though at what cost to the nation remains to be seen. Even if he or she does take that option, there's a chance that people could start rioting again.

In a way, i think that those who have or are getting out of the country are doing the right thing because this is going to be one Hell of a storm, no matter how one looks at it!!!

Harriet03 · 41-45, F

They WON'T!! It's going to be the end of the union. 🤷‍♀️

View 1 more replies »

Harriet03 · 41-45, F

@Burnley123 + NI voted remain + changing demographics on the Republican side.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Harriet03 + hard border + DUP complicity...

Harriet03 · 41-45, F

@Burnley123 You got it!

SatanBurger · 36-40, F

I was glad to hear one thing in the video, there was almost no youth besides that small group of young brexit supporters. They said that the youth have been indoctrinated, I can only imagine in the most horrible way possible, into not being a fascist anti gay/minority hating nationalist with no education.

That made my day, it just makes it difficult because the young are too young to be in office and unfortunately they are the only rational group when the dinosaurs want to take it back to their age.

Adaydreambeliever · 56-60, F

You paint a very gloomy picture.. I am more optimistic... I don't see all these divisions we hear about .. I work in an office where there are pro and anti brexit and we all get on ok.. we can discuss and debate and behave in a reasonable, respectful way..

I see loads of people just going about their daily business.. and the predominant sentiment I hear, right or wrong, is that of boredom with the whole brexit thing..

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Adaydreambeliever I hope you are right about that. I'm heavily political Irl too and maybe over exposed to some of these things.

SmartKat · 56-60, F

Damn, it seems to be the same all over the world.

I wish I knew what would end this.

room101 · 51-55, M

I agree with all that you've said. Apart from the implied criticism of Boris Johnson re a "no deal" Brexit.

A "no deal" Brexit is the default position if we don't agree a deal with the EU.

View 2 more replies »

room101 · 51-55, M

@HootyTheNightOwl I never said that a default "no deal" can be pinned down to any one minister. It's the default position because:
we had a referendum
we chose to leave the EU
we triggered Article 50 (we had to because the EU would not negotiate with us until we did)

Ergo, if we don't agree a deal with the EU, we leave with "no deal".
.
.
.
.
.
.
Unless we revoke Article 50!

HootyTheNightOwl

@Burnley123 Wasn't that May's stance from day one??? The only reason we are still debating now is because the backbenchers got in her way...

@room101 In all fairness, another way that May screwed up was by invoking Article 50 way too early in the process (i'm not even going to mention the fact that she forgot about Gibraltar as she did so, either).

We could have saved a lot of this fuss right now if she'd opted to sit down with everyone and find out what they wanted before rushing to trigger Article 50... maybe, just maybe she might have gotten more support for her deal if there was a bit of something in there for everyone.

Looking at the situation that we are in right now, it's impossible to find a way forward unless we revoke, given that the rest of Parliament are going to kick up a stink if the new Prime Minister decides to go with a "no deal" triggered by us as a country - and revoking is going to open up an entirely new can of worms among the public which could see mass protests and possibly rioting once again.

No matter how you look at it, getting out of the country could be the most attractive response right now - at least until the dust settles, given the possibility that this just might go nuclear and blow up in our faces.

room101 · 51-55, M

@HootyTheNightOwl First of all, getting out of the country is not even worth considering as a viable suggestion, let alone an attractive response.

Any leader has to do what they believe to be right. Yes, they have a cabinet and other advisors who are part of the decision making process but, it's their responsibility to make the final decisions. Triggering Article 50 was put to the House of Commons. It was debated and it was unanimously agreed (498 to 114 votes) to allow Theresa May to invoke Article 50.

That was the opportunity for our Parliamentarians to delay and/or to put forward their preferences/ideas/wants etc etc etc. Having passed on that opportunity, Parliament proceeded to fall apart at the seams. And they have done nothing to pull themselves together on what is probably the most important decision that they have had to make in the last 40 years.

I'm no fan of Theresa May, nor the Tories in general, but this wasn't her screw up. The whole debacle is a screw up by Parliament.

HerKing · 61-69, M

I'm genuinely frightened about the consequences however it is decided. I'm seriously thinking of trying to get my son over (To USA-though not sure if it's any better here, though I can look after him) if things degenerate badly (and I think they will). 😒

SmartKat · 56-60, F

@HerKing Don’t get him to the U.S.; we’re having the same problem!

There’s got to be *someplace* sane left in the world....but where?

HerKing · 61-69, M

@SmartKat Putin must be drunk laughing with the shit that's going on that he's financed. Italy, Austria, France, UK, USA, Poland...where next?

Jogadnbyt

Civil war?

Honestly the whole things a mess mate, and your right, government are giving the far right so much ammo, i dont really know too much about the politics, but i know somethings not right, and me, yiu, and every other tax payer is gonna cop it, cant wait!

This comment is hidden. Show Comment

View 1 more replies »

This comment is hidden. Show Comment

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@AgapeLove I would rather talk about class issues and equality for all people and Brexit is a thermo-nuclear distraction to that. I'm a progressive but I want to build unity of people based on shared economic position.

In Britain, there is no Christian right: abortion, gun control and gay marriage are pretty much non-issues. Brexit is a huge thing though because it is based on immigration and national identity. Its pitched social liberals and social conservatives against each other on class lines.

room101 · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 And yet, low wage earners in the north voted for Brexit. Just as toffs in the south also voted for Brexit 🤷‍♂️

SW-User

I think they also banned channel 4 news from their events didn't they. The voice of democracy.

SW-User

@SW-User yes after the investigation into Nigel Farrage's personal sponsorship by Aaron Banks. Which is now being investigated by the EU parliament standards Committee

Tracos · 51-55, M

how would you reckon a new referendum to play out?

View 1 more replies »

This message was deleted by its author.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Tracos I haven't always supported a second ref (for various reasons) but I've come to that conclusion because the middle ground in this country is disappearing. Almost nobody wants a compromise deal. Remainers would see a negotiated compromise deal as a sell-out and leavers would see that as a sellout so we are basically heading to a situation where it's no deal Brexit vrs Remain.

A second ref would be a nasty campaign and very close but I think remain would probably narrowly win. It would leave a lot of angry people though and they are already really angry.

Tracos · 51-55, M

I think you are right.... I just hate to see a good country be torn apart over senseless populist emotion manipulations

Platinum · M

Once brexit has been sorted out and people see their lives have not changed, the country will go back to normal...we are a great country that has been ruined by the two worse leaders of the main parties I've ever seen...we will not be in recession , after a settling in period life will go on as it was before 2016 and everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about...

room101 · 51-55, M

So what do you think of the EU election results?

View 6 more replies »

room101 · 51-55, M

@Burnley123 Parliament is indeed a reflection of where we are at as a people. Which is as it should be. After all, we vote for MP's who represent our values and ideas.

I expected the Tories to do badly, mainly because of the demonisation of Theresa May's withdrawal agreement. Which is something that nobody has been able to pragmatically and objectively explain to me. I still don't see what's so bad about it.

I didn't expect Labour to do so badly, mainly because of the loyalty that Corbyn seems to have among his followers. I think that it's now clear that that loyalty is purely confined to his hard core base and that his ideas and policies are not at all reflective of the average Labour voter.

Which leads me on to a point that Ann Widdecombe made when she was being interviewed by the BBC after winning the South West seat. She said that both the Lib Dems and the Greens are established political parties who have supporters on many issues other than Brexit. Conversely, the Brexit Party has one issue and one issue alone ie to leave the EU. Without a deal. This leads me to conclude what I've feared all along. If we were to have a second referendum, the vote to leave would be much higher than it was in 2016.

SW-User

@room101 I think if we have another referendum likelihood is actually the result would be similar to the original.
Ms Widdecombe is correct to a point. I agree people voting green and lib Dems have other reasons to vote for them.
The deal is actually OK I think. The real sticking issue I can see is that currently there is no argument about our sovereignty ie parliament does something that is it eg we can decide to leave the EU or revoke article 50 without recourse to the EU. But the backstop does reduce that in that we cannot withdraw legally without EU agreement. Which is a conundrum in that so many in the leave side argued this was about sovereignty and we appear (if only temporarily) be worse off. If that bending of the truth hasn't been going on maybe we'd have agreed it back in December.
Also it's a shame no one thought hard enough about the Belfast agreement before we got here.

room101 · 51-55, M

@SW-User No one thought hard enough about anything to do with the EU before we got here 😉

The NI backstop is a major sticking point, I agree. However, as with everything else in the withdrawal agreement, we would have had two years to find a solution. Of course that would require our politicians to take their heads out of their rear ends and to actually serve the country as a whole.

I think that, back in March, Theresa May was absolutely right when she told the House of Commons:

“The outcome of a long extension would be endless hours and days of this House carrying on contemplating its navel on Europe.”

That's what they've been doing for almost three years. They've been looking for problems instead of solutions. And they've been looking for problems primarily in order to hold on to their seats or to extend their own power base.

If a given political party puts together a manifesto which contains some contentious issues, what do they do? They go out and campaign and try to explain to the electorate why those contentious issues are important and why they should be supported. In my view, very few of the current crop of MP's have actually done that.

Mugin16 · 46-50, M

Yes, the country is deeply divided. And not just on one issue.

Boris Johnson does not strike me as a serious leader. I think he is a clown.

As for the people whom Owen Jones, what a prat he is, has interviewed, remember that the ruling class and people like Jones despise them and have nothing but contempt for them. So no wonder they return that contempt with interest.

View 1 more replies »

Mugin16 · 46-50, M

@Burnley123 If you read my commment carefully, you would seen that I wrote "the ruling class and people like Jones". That does not imply that Jones is a part of the ruling class.

Civility? People like Owen Jones call such demonstrators all kinds of names when they write about them. Just look what Jean-Claude Juncker recently said about people who love their country.

SW-User

@Mugin16 I thought Junker was referring to nationism rather than patriotism.

I found this quote online at differencebetween.net

[quote]Nationalism vs Patriotism

Nationalism and patriotism both show the relationship of an individual towards his or her nation. The two are often confused and frequently believed to mean the same thing. However, there is a vast difference between nationalism and patriotism.

Nationalism means to give more importance to unity by way of a cultural background, including language and heritage. Patriotism pertains to the love for a nation, with more emphasis on values and beliefs.

When talking about nationalism and patriotism, one cannot avoid the famous quotation by George Orwell, who said that nationalism is ‘the worst enemy of peace’. According to him, nationalism is a feeling that one’s country is superior to another in all respects, while patriotism is merely a feeling of admiration for a way of life. These concepts show that patriotism is passive by nature and nationalism can be a little aggressive.

Patriotism is based on affection and nationalism is rooted in rivalry and resentment. One can say that nationalism is militant by nature and patriotism is based on peace.
[/quote]

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Mugin16 Can you give me a specific example of what you just said?

I've followed OJ's work since before he joined the Guardian and I can't think of an example of what you claim.

He's insulted politicians plenty of times but never voters he disagrees with. To me, the video does show the hypocrisy of many in the hard right: accuse the left of being against free speech but prevent free speech of people they disagree with. It's a Nimby mentality.

Breeze60 · 61-69, M

Seems like anywhere Steve Bannon goes government disarray follows

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Breeze60 Bannon doesn't have a lot of influence here. It's just that Europe has the same nationalist right forces (which helped Bannon's rise) that you have seen in America.

SW-User

Migrants from ex British and French empires are flooding Italy: does Farage Nigel talk about that in his passionate speeches?

View 2 more replies »

This comment is hidden. Show Comment

SW-User

@kingkyri I'm not going to continue this in some one elses post. I said what Imhad to say and AS I SAID ot ends here.

I so DO NOT agree with you but that's my problem no?

Aurevoir mon petit chou.

This comment is hidden. Show Comment

Tracos · 51-55, M

a couple of nihilist saboteurs politicians should be defamed and as horrible as it sounds: a good crisis has the benefit of unification....

Add a comment...