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The Term "Pro-Choice" And The Rectification of Names?

Confucius was asked what he would do if he was a governor. He said he would "rectify the names" to make words correspond to reality. After Confucius died a "Rectification of Names" would be heard promised in almost every rebellion in China.

The divide between infanticidists and anti-infanticidists mirrors the divide over slavery in the United states in the 19th century. The pro-slavery side believed black people were not really human or at best "sub-human" and could be enslaved, becoming their property that slave-owners could do with as they pleased.

It was a belief that lived on into the 20th century in Nazi Germany, Fascist Japan and Communist Russia.

Most of us know how history eventually dealt with this.

Today infanticidists argue that murder is acceptable because a fetus is part of a woman's body to do with as she pleases...because it is sub-human. If this argument sounds familiar it is because it is the same as the pro-slavery supporters of the 19t9 century United States and of the Nazis and Communists who declared whole races/classes "subhuman".

So a Confucian "rectification of names" is now required. Pro-choice is the "choice" to commit infanticide up to the day of delivery and even afterwards (Democrat lawmakers in the US states of Virginia and New York will be pleased to explain to you how a woman should be able to dispose of her "property" whenever she feels like if you ask. So too will HRC and the "devout" Catholic Nancy Pelosi).


So..."pro-choice"? No. "Pro-infanticide"? Yes. The moral and intellectual courage of Confucius is proven again.
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Bit of a tenuous comparison. Blacks are definitely people. They have all the qualities that one would attribute to personhood.

A fetus does not.
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@Waymore

In what ways do you feel a fetus demonstrates the qualities of personhood?
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@Waymore

Yes really.
Having human DNA is not a meaningful quality of personhood.
I understand why you may think that because humans are currently the only kind of people with which we're familiar but i think upon reflection you might find that there are rather more meaningful descriptions of personhood than having human genetics.
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@Waymore

Do you think personal insults somehow strengthen your position or discredit mine?

Don't allow your emotional knee-jerk reaction to dominate your behaviour.
Use your brain and think this through.

Try again.
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Abrienda · 26-30, F
@Pikachu at 8 months what does a "fetus" look like to you, I suppose you know what a sonogram is.

Tenuous for you because you are being anachronistic. Millions of people including scientists once thought blacks were not human. Less than 80 yers ago the most sociually an dculturally advanced nation in Europe also thought that about not just balcks but Jews and Slavs as well. Those are facts and in fact had the Nazi's won the war that would be recieved opinion today. Then as now MILIONS of people like yourself wish to be deluded and use words like "pro-choice" because it makes them comfortable, In fact it allows millions of men to live a hedonistic sex life only dreamed by Moslem men to come in paradise, although they are not so hypocritical as self-styled @Christian men who are in favor of their one night stand "solving" his problem at the local death clinic: I have yet to meet any Moslem man who favors infanticide regardless of the circumstance.


You are obviously an intelligent person but its also remarkable the verbal and logical pretzel you must make of yourself in order to support this morally and intellectually bankrupt position...just as the owners of slaves did once.

Oh...by the way...I hope your mother is still alive and if so perhaps you might ask her what she called you at 8 months...a fetus or a baby? A human life or a cluster of tissues? When she tells you "baby" make sure you take the tile to educate her out her ignorance. Or, maybe your wife?
@Waymore

Oh you weren't trying to insult me, you were just stating facts...
It's a fact that my parents didn't have any offspring that survived?

Please don't be dishonest as well as rude.

Assume whatever you like. It makes no difference to our current discussion. I note that you still haven't actually addressed the content of my post, only responded emotionally to it.

Try again.
@Abrienda

Not really interested in discussing late term abortions.
I'm simply pointing out that the attempt to compare the perceived personhood of black people to that of a fetus is flawed. The attempt to show that since it was wrong thinking in that case that it is wrong in this case is spurious.

Black people are demonstrably persons.
What qualities of personhood do you feel that a fetus possesses?
Abrienda · 26-30, F
@Pikachu Of COURSE you are not. Please take a deep breath sit back and see how morally miserable that statement is. YOU don't want to discuss it? Too bad...I know why you don't, but happily I don't need to comply. However your attempt to not confront or resolve those parts of the debate that even you cannot defend shows your whole position is rotten.

On the black person/unborn child nexus you are simply being what the Jesuits call "intentionally stupid" by replying to an argument I did not make

Kindly then tell us, doctor...when does a "fetus" become a "baby"? The time you believe that occurs or not is something you now say you don't want to discuss because you are not an intellectually honest, morally or even logically consistent man. And since you have just betrayed your dishonesty, My conversations with you on this entire topic is at an end for, whether you wish to face it or not, you just lost it out of your own mouth. I ill however gladly copy and paste them in future when you venture into this debate...before you delete it that is.😉
@Abrienda

I assume all that was not a [i]deliberate[/i] deflection of my challenge to describe how a fetus demonstrates the qualities of personhood because that would be dishonest. And that would make you a hypocrite.

Looks like you're getting a little nasty about this. Unnecessary.
It appears that you're attempting to claim the moral high ground before plugging your ears and covering your eyes.
Hopefully you'll show a little more integrity than that.

I'm not interested in discussing it because i haven't decided how i feel about it nor am i in possession of all the facts. I don't know why that upsets you.

I'm not sure of when the exact time a fetus should be considered a baby occurs. That's why we have a cut off point, around 20 weeks barring other medical complications.

Feel free to copy and paste everything.
GJOFJ3 · 61-69, M
@Pikachu actually the courts have determined if it is a wanted pregnancy it is a person. Scott Peterson is just one of many that has been convicted of homicide for killing an unborn. And yet 43 Senators just voted that even if an abortion results in a live birth, as long as it was unwanted it is not a person, has no rights, and can be left die of be killed. This is infanticide pure and simple
@GJOFJ3

So given that the deciding factor is intention, does that law reflect the personhood of the fetus or the loss to the mother?
GJOFJ3 · 61-69, M
@Pikachu personhood of the fetus. Scott Peterson killed his pregnant wife which also caused the death of the unborn and was rightly convicted of two counts of homicide
Abrienda · 26-30, F
@GJOFJ3 He has already lost the argument by saying he is not "interested" in discussing late term abortions. I can believe he doesn't...and we know why. A perfect example of moral confusion and intellectual.
@GJOFJ3

Yes but given the fact that a fetus is not recognized as a person under the law in any other context it seems more likely that this sort of ruling reflects the loss the mother rather than agreeing to the personhood of the fetus.
@Abrienda

Did you even read my reply to you? I told you why that was.
Or are you more interested in bad mouthing me to other users because you disagree with me?

If you're not prepared to debate me then don't do it, but don't stoop to talking shit about me behind my back, ok?
GJOFJ3 · 61-69, M
@Pikachu you can not be convicted of taking the life of an inanimate object. He was convicted of taking 2 lives
@GJOFJ3

Sure, and given the fact that a fetus is not recognized as a person under the law in any other context it seems more likely that this sort of ruling reflects the loss the mother rather than agreeing to the personhood of the fetus.
GJOFJ3 · 61-69, M
@Pikachu NO. IT DOES NOT!
Loss of motherhood was not the issue.
@GJOFJ3

Well i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of that ruling then.

So maybe we can get into the discussion that abrienda was afraid to enter:

Personhood.

The only thing i really sought to contest in this thread was her attempt to compare the personhood of black people to the personhood of a fetus.

What do you feel are the qualities of personhood exhibited by a fetus?
GJOFJ3 · 61-69, M
@Pikachu it's a life. Early ultrasound can determine both life and gender. Modern medicine can perform life saving surgeries on a living unborn. The unborn reacts to sounds motion.
The ONLY time it is not considered or referred to as a person or life is when it comes to abortion. All other medical definition refers to the fetus as having life.
@GJOFJ3

I think you're conflating life and personhood here.

Stimulus response and gender are not qualities of personhood. After all, a grasshopper has both those things and more self awareness than a fetus. But it is not a person, agreed?
GJOFJ3 · 61-69, M
@Pikachu We aren't taking about grasshoppers. What about the severely mentally and physically challenged, are you going to argue that because they cannot feed themselves or express thoughts they are not by definition a person? Do they have rights? Should we be able to determine if they are not a life?