Why does Vince Cable have to be so boring?

@gol979 there are, but none anywhere near significant enough to justify leaving. I feel that MEPs should have more say over decisions than they do, and that the connection between them and their constituency needs to be clearer. That would make it feel more democratic and show the roles it has.
Also I do not think the EU’s environmental policy is good enough, but there isn’t really anyone at the moment who’s environmental policy is good enough - they’re definitely better than the UK will be outside of the EU. Tbh that describes a lot of it, most things I probably don’t think are perfect in the EU but having them point us in generally the right direction helps stop us going in the wrong one.

@AndrewtheAlu so not much wrong with the EU then, in your opinion.
The EU is now a major neoliberal organisation......you don't have to look too far to see that. How they treated Greece in relation to their referendum and imposed structural procedure policies (privatisation) after forcing it to accept IMF loans and cripple them with debt along with saving the French and German banks. Saying that Italy cannot run its own budget. State aid limits, so when a government comes in who will truly take back natural monopolies and hopefully with no remuneration, the EU will block that. How it sat on its hands while old people were being beaten by the Spanish government due to the Catalan independence vote. No mention of Luxembourg, that place makes the Cayman islands look like a bunch of amateurs. No mention of TTIP, which is corporate power on steroids.

I understand there are good things about the EU but when you weigh it up then there are.better alternatives.......Theresa mays deal isn't one and no deal also isn't btw (IMO)

@gol979 yep. I forgot about the Catalan independence vote - if there was more they could do, then they should have done. I’m not sure of how much power they have over that though and that isn’t really a reason to leave.

I also agree with you that Luxembourg is not good, but Luxembourg is not the EU nor a reason to leave it. Same with Hungary. Leaving the EU because we don’t like policies Luxembourg would be like an MP in Scotland not coming to parliament because they disagree with a policy by the London mayor. If anything, the fact that countries like Luxembourg and countries like Sweden can exist in the same organisation is a reason to stay - it shows that countries can be pretty much whatever they want to be inside.

So what are the alternatives then in your opinion? Remaining in the EU is better than no deal, and May’s deal, but if there is somehow a better solution than that, why didn’t someone suggest it 3 years ago?

@AndrewtheAlu because they have to bash capitalism......and there's hardly any politician who wants to stop that gravy train.
TTIP should be mentioned by brexiteers every single time because it's a very good point....but they can't because it exposes naked capitalism and that the wants of corporate power override the wants of the public.......whereas as hard-core brexiteers want a version of that.

I would say Labour's version of brexit is the least damaging initially and leaves open the door for genuine socialist policies (renationalisation of energy, water, public transport. A progressive tax policy especially business, closing down of tax loop holes which can be done overnight etc etc).

I'll be honest, I think our domestic policies will have more of an impact than brexit but I don't want to see future governments hands tied by either no deal or mays deal

@gol979 as you’d expect as I’m a Green, I’d trust Labour more after Brexit than I would the Tories. I would support all of the things you’ve listed I think. But I don’t think there is a rule to prevent us doing those things while still in the EU? Even if it isn’t what other EU nations do doesn’t stop us doing it.

Regardless of that though, Labour aren’t in power, and are extremely unlikely to win a general election or even get one to happen in the first place. With the tories in power it’s likely that Brexit will result in us being even more TTIP-y than the EU would be. Isn’t it better to stay in, and help reform the EU away from TTIP rather than falling out and ending up with even worse? Besides, it’s not been approved yet. As members we would have a veto power over it anyway, whereas if we leave, and they approve it, we end up with both the USA and EU pressurising us to do all the things that TTIP involves, and the moment the tories get in they’d have all the foreign support. We’re better off trying to prevent TTIP in the first place.

@AndrewtheAlu TTIP has been put on the shelf, for now, because citizens were protesting it. But it will come back again.

I agree the Tories are a shit show and pretty much any deal/status quo and they will, and are, fucking over vulnerable and normal people.

There are powers to stop state aid under competition law. So any radical changes, which is what are needed, will be canned by this regulation. And that is while we are in the EU.

Greens have a lot going for them, I hope that they garner way more seats in the next general election