The contrast between Bush and Trump?

I found an interesting article about the Bush legacy (centred around facilitating a soft landing for the Cold War) and what has come after.

Essentially, the argument goes that the post-war architecture served us very well during the cold war, but needed updating after it. Instead, much of the western leadership has been clinging to the vestiges of those institutions, rather than revising, reinventing or reinvigorating them.

Trump, although from the same generation of Bush, is oblivious to the origin or purpose of post-war institutions. That gives him the freedom to question them, which is good and long overdue.

On the other hand, he's so dumb, he can't ask the right questions, or provide useful answers. Which is bad.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/george-bush-and-our-world-order/

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MartinII · 70-79, M

Is Trump dumb? Non-intellectual, not very well-informed, plenty of other possible criticisms. But not dumb, in my opinion.

WoodyAq · M

@MartinII What's the difference between dumb and ignorant?

MartinII · 70-79, M

@WoodyAq Huge. An ignorant person simply doesn’t know things. A dumb person (dumb in the American sense meaning stupid) can’t find sensible responses even to things he does know about.

WoodyAq · M

@MartinII I'd say Trump was both ... but I rarely hear him speak coherently about anything, so it is hard to tell, I guess.

MartinII · 70-79, M

@WoodyAq Personally I think he’s very shrewd. That doesn’t mean I agree with him on everything, though I do on some things. I take your point about his lack of coherence, but I’d judge him on what he does more than on what he says.

WoodyAq · M

@MartinII What exactly has he done? Apart from witness tampering and renaming trade deals?

MartinII · 70-79, M

Taken a consistent line in the Middle East - anti-Iran, pro-Israel, maintaining the alliance with Saudi Arabia despite provocations Challenged Europe to play a bigger part in NATO, while maintaining the US’s role. Made good (according to Republican principles) appointments to the Supreme Court. Taken a sceptical approach to the conventional wisdom on future climate change. Shown a healthy disrespect for moribund international institutions, which I think was part of the point of your original post.

Ynotisay · M

@MartinII Agreed. People also said that W was dumb. You don't become President if you're dumb.

WoodyAq · M

@MartinII "Healthy" disrespect was not the point of the post. And he hasn't challenged Europe to play a bigger role in NATO, he's been undermining NATO while whining about Europe.

I'll give you anti-Iran, pro-Israel and the judges, but his "who can say for sure?" approach to Saudi Arabia is atrocious.

MartinII · 70-79, M

@WoodyAq The Saudi point is an interesting one. From an ethical point of view I agree with you. But from the point of view of US national interests, and Western interests, I think the administration’s approach has much to commend it, pragmatic or cynical though it is.

WoodyAq · M

@MartinII Yeah, it's one of those things where the outcome isn't necessarily wrong (debatable, but not obviously wrong) but getting to it requires much, much more than what has gone into it, at the level (the president) that it has happened.

There are two explanations, both unfortunately plausible: the president is as compromised personally wrt Saudi Arabia as he is with Russia; he is hopelessly out of his depth.

I've heard both arguments. In this case, my money is on the second explanation.

MartinII · 70-79, M

@WoodyAq Or the President, or at least his advisers, have thought carefully about it and decided on the present policy. Possible, if perhaps not very likely!

WoodyAq · M

@MartinII No, not likely, because his advisers are unlikely to have said "throw your intelligence services, made up of your fellow Americans, under the bus and openly trust a psychopathic Saudi prince instead."

But with the people Trump listens to, who knows. Which is part of the problem...