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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
It was an election so tight that any one single factor would have won it:
1) Hilary's bad GE campaign
2) The DNC treatment of Bernie pissing off half the base.
3) The Comey intervention on the email story.
4) Hillary's weakness as a candidate.
5) Bigger, deeper and broader trends in American society, politics, and economics.
It's not a surprise to me that Russia interfered in this election. We still don't know the extent, let alone the impact it had but sure... it could have been decisive.
Trump has been catfished by the Russians. Such an unreliable blowhard who had no previous connections to the American state would be of no use to Putin for information or insider dealing. So I don't think 'collusion' or 'treason' are things which have happened. As regard Don Jnr's meeting with the lawyer; there is no reason for the Russian secret services to orchestrate it other than to implicated the Trump clan. And implicate them they did because the Trump's have no qualms about working with a foreign government or no qualms about anything else because they are a family of gangster capitalists who see the law as something to be manipulated or ignored. Though that had no bearing on any Russian election interference either way.
I think the main reason that Trump fired Comey (aside from total stupidity) is to keep the FBI away from the family finances. It's in the Michael Wolff book and it makes sense given what we know about the family history. Trump is not a master manipulator but dodgy salesman who is way over his head and perhaps he is being used.
Nonetheless, Trump has been a hawk as regards Russia. He has sent arms to Ukraine and bombed Assad's forces in Syria. I believe that this is partly because of the neo-con Republicans who influence him and partly to distance himself from collusion with Putin.
This brings me to my biggest worry; that he might escalate a war to save his own skin. Russia is a military power but is much weaker than the USA and Trump is someone who hates being humiliated. As the investigation tightens its grip, I can imagine him being tempted to do a manly act of aggression to show who is boss and to get American institutions on his side. 9/11 gave an American President the scope to get away with a lot.
I despise Trump and would be pleased by his downfall but I think people should keep a sense of perspective. The Russia gate thing is important but it also has cold-war echoes that could impact foreign policy in a VERY dangerous way. My own 'Safe European Home' would be on the first line of nuclear Armageddon.
Whilst its right to attack Trump for this, I think people should also want to maintain peaceful relationships between great powers. Some of the American media have praised Trump for his hawkishness and I see that as very dangerous. Remember also, that America has meddled in lots of elections before, including Russian elections.
1) Hilary's bad GE campaign
2) The DNC treatment of Bernie pissing off half the base.
3) The Comey intervention on the email story.
4) Hillary's weakness as a candidate.
5) Bigger, deeper and broader trends in American society, politics, and economics.
It's not a surprise to me that Russia interfered in this election. We still don't know the extent, let alone the impact it had but sure... it could have been decisive.
Trump has been catfished by the Russians. Such an unreliable blowhard who had no previous connections to the American state would be of no use to Putin for information or insider dealing. So I don't think 'collusion' or 'treason' are things which have happened. As regard Don Jnr's meeting with the lawyer; there is no reason for the Russian secret services to orchestrate it other than to implicated the Trump clan. And implicate them they did because the Trump's have no qualms about working with a foreign government or no qualms about anything else because they are a family of gangster capitalists who see the law as something to be manipulated or ignored. Though that had no bearing on any Russian election interference either way.
I think the main reason that Trump fired Comey (aside from total stupidity) is to keep the FBI away from the family finances. It's in the Michael Wolff book and it makes sense given what we know about the family history. Trump is not a master manipulator but dodgy salesman who is way over his head and perhaps he is being used.
Nonetheless, Trump has been a hawk as regards Russia. He has sent arms to Ukraine and bombed Assad's forces in Syria. I believe that this is partly because of the neo-con Republicans who influence him and partly to distance himself from collusion with Putin.
This brings me to my biggest worry; that he might escalate a war to save his own skin. Russia is a military power but is much weaker than the USA and Trump is someone who hates being humiliated. As the investigation tightens its grip, I can imagine him being tempted to do a manly act of aggression to show who is boss and to get American institutions on his side. 9/11 gave an American President the scope to get away with a lot.
I despise Trump and would be pleased by his downfall but I think people should keep a sense of perspective. The Russia gate thing is important but it also has cold-war echoes that could impact foreign policy in a VERY dangerous way. My own 'Safe European Home' would be on the first line of nuclear Armageddon.
Whilst its right to attack Trump for this, I think people should also want to maintain peaceful relationships between great powers. Some of the American media have praised Trump for his hawkishness and I see that as very dangerous. Remember also, that America has meddled in lots of elections before, including Russian elections.
WoodyAq · M
@Burnley123 I don't think you can rule out collusion at this stage. There were a lot of meetings between the campaign and Russia, and a lot of lies about them that really don't have good explanations otherwise.
NoFuxGiven · 22-25, F
@Burnley123
Why did Russia have to intervene if Hillary Clinton was such a weak candidate?
Why did she win by 3 million votes if she ran a bad campaign?
Why did Bernie run as a Democrat? He’s not a Democrat. He fucked that one up.
Why did Russia have to intervene if Hillary Clinton was such a weak candidate?
Why did she win by 3 million votes if she ran a bad campaign?
Why did Bernie run as a Democrat? He’s not a Democrat. He fucked that one up.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@NoFuxGiven I said any factor could have influenced it. A lot of improbable shit needs to come together to put Donald J. Trump in the White House. And it did.
Hillary was an unpopular candidate. Even her former aids have said she ran a bad campaign. As for whether Bernie should have been allowed to run as a Democrat, its a separate issue to the points I made.
Hillary was an unpopular candidate. Even her former aids have said she ran a bad campaign. As for whether Bernie should have been allowed to run as a Democrat, its a separate issue to the points I made.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@WoodyAq It depends what you mean by collusion. In a strict, classical sense it was more being played than being a player.
What would Russia gain from working with Trump, other than to implicate him? Did he have special insider information on American operations, security or elections? It's highly doubtful that he knew anything at all that the Russia secret services did not already know. In fact, surely they had much more information than him There is no way that the secret services of a major country would use a non-encrypted email chain through to set up a meeting with the idiot frat boy son of a Presidential candidate... unless... they wanted it to be discovered. There is nothing else they would gain from it.
What they got is the President of America implicated dodgy business. It embarrasses America and makes Russia look strong. Would Trump have aversion to collusion? No way.he would probably sell his own late grandmother's remains if he thought it brought him an advantage. Would Trump be capable of collusion? No, and I don't see how.
What would Russia gain from working with Trump, other than to implicate him? Did he have special insider information on American operations, security or elections? It's highly doubtful that he knew anything at all that the Russia secret services did not already know. In fact, surely they had much more information than him There is no way that the secret services of a major country would use a non-encrypted email chain through to set up a meeting with the idiot frat boy son of a Presidential candidate... unless... they wanted it to be discovered. There is nothing else they would gain from it.
What they got is the President of America implicated dodgy business. It embarrasses America and makes Russia look strong. Would Trump have aversion to collusion? No way.he would probably sell his own late grandmother's remains if he thought it brought him an advantage. Would Trump be capable of collusion? No, and I don't see how.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@WoodyAq They helped put him into power but to say the 'put him into power' is a seismic exaggeration. If the DNC hack was about them (which it probably was but has yet to be conclusively proven) then it is only one factor in a propaganda war. Perhaps it was decisive in a close election against a damaged candidate but its not like they cyber-hacked the election database or took over the FBI.
American has done much more to other countries and its how great powers operate. I don't like it either but its how politics is actually played. The NYT has some perspective on this, though it barely scratches the surface:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/sunday-review/russia-isnt-the-only-one-meddling-in-elections-we-do-it-too.html
As for Russian favoured policies; he hasn't.
Weapons to Ukrainians, bombs on Assad's troops and more sanctions on Russia... His Whitehouse has been more hawkish than Obama. I actually agree more with the Obama line btw. Though, yeah it is probable that Putin would rather have him in the WH than Hillary, who was an ardent war hawk and very anti-Russian.
Please understand that I am not defending Trump. I have called him a proto-fascist and the worst US President in history. I stand by both of those slurs. I am just asking for a sense of perspective here. A lot of the language around this is hyperbolic and there are gaps in the analysis. Besides, if the two assholes can negotiate peace instead of bombing the shit out of everyone, I think it would be better all around.
American has done much more to other countries and its how great powers operate. I don't like it either but its how politics is actually played. The NYT has some perspective on this, though it barely scratches the surface:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/sunday-review/russia-isnt-the-only-one-meddling-in-elections-we-do-it-too.html
As for Russian favoured policies; he hasn't.
Weapons to Ukrainians, bombs on Assad's troops and more sanctions on Russia... His Whitehouse has been more hawkish than Obama. I actually agree more with the Obama line btw. Though, yeah it is probable that Putin would rather have him in the WH than Hillary, who was an ardent war hawk and very anti-Russian.
Please understand that I am not defending Trump. I have called him a proto-fascist and the worst US President in history. I stand by both of those slurs. I am just asking for a sense of perspective here. A lot of the language around this is hyperbolic and there are gaps in the analysis. Besides, if the two assholes can negotiate peace instead of bombing the shit out of everyone, I think it would be better all around.
WoodyAq · M
@Burnley123 All those antiRussian policies are the deep state's doing that Trump has had to acquiesce to. His own actions have been down the line pro-Russian. Including offering support to parties in Europe who want to break up the EU. Which he did last week.
Or attempt to undermine NATO, which he also did last week.
Or not imposing Russian sanctions that Congress demanded, which he did a while ago. Or didn't do, rather.
Or attempt to undermine NATO, which he also did last week.
Or not imposing Russian sanctions that Congress demanded, which he did a while ago. Or didn't do, rather.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@WoodyAq Hmm... fair point in that one maybe. He has been forced into an anti-Russian position by the deep state and the neo-cons. I think I said something similar up there and I think we agree on that.
Trump does like Putin and he is a nationalist. His views of NATI and the EU are not really about fealty to Putin but ideological affinity. He sees NATO as something which is screwing American interests as a 'bad deal' and he is a nationalist who is against trans-national institutions. I think he would still have done this crazy shit regardless of what Putin thinks.
Trump does like Putin and he is a nationalist. His views of NATI and the EU are not really about fealty to Putin but ideological affinity. He sees NATO as something which is screwing American interests as a 'bad deal' and he is a nationalist who is against trans-national institutions. I think he would still have done this crazy shit regardless of what Putin thinks.
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 Thanks for your considered answers and for making some very good points.
Of course the question was rhetorical really , no-one will ever know for sure.
What I do know though is that Putin was caught out in two lies yesterday and both were very telling. He said he didn't even know Trump was in Moscow for the Miss Universe contest , when we know that he did and that there were even plans for the two to meet. He also slipped up by saying he wanted Trump to win and advised his goons to help when he has always previously denied it.
Some analyst believe that the Russians have been cultivating Trump as an intelligence asset from as far back as the early eighties after his first trip to Russia and (probably not) coincidentally around the time when we began to hear his nationalist anti-western rhetoric for the first time. His performance yesterday would indicate that they have been spectacularly succesful in that goal.
Personally I believe that Putin has enough on Trump to destroy him , whether it be the famous video or the amount of debt he really owes and the money laundering that seems to be the main revenue source for his organisation. Putin needs sanctions to be lifted so his gang of thieves can get their money out of Russia and afford them a veneeer of respectability. That's what counts most and that is the quid pro quo for their help in getting him elected. It might be some consolation to the rest of us that their actions , and Trump's continuing idiocy , have now rendered that likelihood almost impossible.
Of course the question was rhetorical really , no-one will ever know for sure.
What I do know though is that Putin was caught out in two lies yesterday and both were very telling. He said he didn't even know Trump was in Moscow for the Miss Universe contest , when we know that he did and that there were even plans for the two to meet. He also slipped up by saying he wanted Trump to win and advised his goons to help when he has always previously denied it.
Some analyst believe that the Russians have been cultivating Trump as an intelligence asset from as far back as the early eighties after his first trip to Russia and (probably not) coincidentally around the time when we began to hear his nationalist anti-western rhetoric for the first time. His performance yesterday would indicate that they have been spectacularly succesful in that goal.
Personally I believe that Putin has enough on Trump to destroy him , whether it be the famous video or the amount of debt he really owes and the money laundering that seems to be the main revenue source for his organisation. Putin needs sanctions to be lifted so his gang of thieves can get their money out of Russia and afford them a veneeer of respectability. That's what counts most and that is the quid pro quo for their help in getting him elected. It might be some consolation to the rest of us that their actions , and Trump's continuing idiocy , have now rendered that likelihood almost impossible.