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I have a lot to say on this so be patient ;)
So this all comes from the rise of the 'manosphere' which is the political world of anti-feminism and populist right ideas that has a million subgroups. Alt-right, MRAs, red-pillers, centipedes, incels, Peterson fanboys, gamergaters, etc...
Issue #1 is the internet. We're now communicating in far more mixed spaces. Activists and apolitical people are now all talking about movies or music or games online, and the activist ideas start to assert themselves. When I was 20, only feminists had heard of rape culture. Nowadays, everyone has heard of the concept because it gets mentioned when they're reading up on a personal interest.
And what that means is that a full on challenge to the status quo will resonate far more than it did. If Anita Sarkeesian did speaking tours on video games in the 90s, nobody would have cared. But when she posted Tropes vs. Women a ton of young men lost their fucking minds because it was a personal intrusion into what they felt was their space and their comfortable status quo.
Issue #2 is that the interactions online are nasty, and that's not all on the right wingers. I have a friend who is in his early 40s and means well and is trying to get feminist ideas. But he posted the equivalent to a 'not all men' thing and got dogpiled and ridiculed. To me, this looked like my friends were trying to intentionally push this guy into men's rights activism. The difference between an attack on patriarchy and a personal attack are huge, but a lot of guys do not understand this distinction, and are expected to just magically get woke on their own.
Issue #3 is that there is incredible social alienation going on right now. The hegemony is falling apart, and people are looking for something to believe in. So they're flocking to difference areas in this manosphere, and particularly someone like Peterson is deeply compelling for someone who wants answers, and is highly resentful of progressives from personal experience. And all of these thinkers place the blame squarely on 'the other' whether it be feminists or immigrants or university professors or what have you. Someone else is at fault, and you have to stop them.
Issue #4 is I really believe the left from social democrats to anarchists have done a piss-poor job of offering up a real alternative. Populist right wing ideas completely seized on this territory and we're left arguing about whether or not eating Taco Bell is cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is a real thing, but we need to recognize it in the context of working together and organizing - not in just finding stuff to shame people over.
Issue #5 is fake news and distortion of truth. There is so much information out there, people need someone to explain it, and who better than Jordan Peterson or another analyst? They tell people what they want to hear. Again and again and again I see people with false understandings about what basic left concepts are. The right are doing a better job of corrupting left wing concepts, than the left are of promoting them.
So this all comes from the rise of the 'manosphere' which is the political world of anti-feminism and populist right ideas that has a million subgroups. Alt-right, MRAs, red-pillers, centipedes, incels, Peterson fanboys, gamergaters, etc...
Issue #1 is the internet. We're now communicating in far more mixed spaces. Activists and apolitical people are now all talking about movies or music or games online, and the activist ideas start to assert themselves. When I was 20, only feminists had heard of rape culture. Nowadays, everyone has heard of the concept because it gets mentioned when they're reading up on a personal interest.
And what that means is that a full on challenge to the status quo will resonate far more than it did. If Anita Sarkeesian did speaking tours on video games in the 90s, nobody would have cared. But when she posted Tropes vs. Women a ton of young men lost their fucking minds because it was a personal intrusion into what they felt was their space and their comfortable status quo.
Issue #2 is that the interactions online are nasty, and that's not all on the right wingers. I have a friend who is in his early 40s and means well and is trying to get feminist ideas. But he posted the equivalent to a 'not all men' thing and got dogpiled and ridiculed. To me, this looked like my friends were trying to intentionally push this guy into men's rights activism. The difference between an attack on patriarchy and a personal attack are huge, but a lot of guys do not understand this distinction, and are expected to just magically get woke on their own.
Issue #3 is that there is incredible social alienation going on right now. The hegemony is falling apart, and people are looking for something to believe in. So they're flocking to difference areas in this manosphere, and particularly someone like Peterson is deeply compelling for someone who wants answers, and is highly resentful of progressives from personal experience. And all of these thinkers place the blame squarely on 'the other' whether it be feminists or immigrants or university professors or what have you. Someone else is at fault, and you have to stop them.
Issue #4 is I really believe the left from social democrats to anarchists have done a piss-poor job of offering up a real alternative. Populist right wing ideas completely seized on this territory and we're left arguing about whether or not eating Taco Bell is cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is a real thing, but we need to recognize it in the context of working together and organizing - not in just finding stuff to shame people over.
Issue #5 is fake news and distortion of truth. There is so much information out there, people need someone to explain it, and who better than Jordan Peterson or another analyst? They tell people what they want to hear. Again and again and again I see people with false understandings about what basic left concepts are. The right are doing a better job of corrupting left wing concepts, than the left are of promoting them.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Northwest You are logical in the way you argue, even at times when we have disagreed.
You cannot debate with Hippy Joe because he's just too indoctrinated.
You cannot debate with Hippy Joe because he's just too indoctrinated.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@Northwest Sure and those distinctions matter, but I think for the purpose of my argument an anarchist vs a liberal are going to have the same issues I'm talking about with identity politics and how it can alienate potential allies. IMHO a major problem with a lot of anarchists is they're engaging in really liberal thinking and treating social stratification as something you resolve on an individual rather than structural basis.
Ynotisay · M
Very well-stated.
The irony of those who beat their chests against "SJW's," while doing the exact same thing they're railing against, always blows my mind. If you want a real "snowflake" look no further than the people whining about "snowflakes."
Faux-persecution is alive and well. And there's a whole lot of people out there who take advantage of that for their own gain.
For me it comes down to the platform of social media. It's not about affecting change for most. It's about "look at me." It means nothing.
The irony of those who beat their chests against "SJW's," while doing the exact same thing they're railing against, always blows my mind. If you want a real "snowflake" look no further than the people whining about "snowflakes."
Faux-persecution is alive and well. And there's a whole lot of people out there who take advantage of that for their own gain.
For me it comes down to the platform of social media. It's not about affecting change for most. It's about "look at me." It means nothing.
GarryToppins · 36-40, M
@Ynotisay I agree. @bijouxbroussard And? Can't we clump these new White Nationalists with SJWs? Same generation. Same tactics and same whining. White Supremecy is dead. It is now White Nationalism. They don't say they are better than other groups. They say thay just want to be around their group and that they should structure the state to benefit them and their culture.
bijouxbroussard · F
@GarryToppins No, because SJWs want these opportunities for groups who weren’t previously receiving them. White supremacists (who support white supremacy) want them only for whites, who were receiving them before.
GarryToppins · 36-40, M
@bijouxbroussard I'm only referring to tactics. I am not making a values judgement on their ideas.
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@AllMight Its all very abstract and light on specific examples and he doesn't quote social justice warriors or engage with an argument that they have made. I don't think reparation is a good thing and I'm not sure SJWs do.
He also makes a huge logical leap between group identity = Soviet Communism which isn't substantiated. The Civil Rights movement of the 60s was about group identity and minority groups such as this just seek to change the system.
In addition, we all have group identities as well as individual ones. Racism exists and is a thing so it makes sense to defend the rights of ethnic minorities.
He also makes a huge logical leap between group identity = Soviet Communism which isn't substantiated. The Civil Rights movement of the 60s was about group identity and minority groups such as this just seek to change the system.
In addition, we all have group identities as well as individual ones. Racism exists and is a thing so it makes sense to defend the rights of ethnic minorities.
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@AllMight Its OK. I disagree but thanks for debating respectfully.
Cierzo · M
Cultural Marxism a crazy conspiracy theory 😂😂.
Good try, but less and less people are affected by words like 'conspiracy' or all the '-ism' the left uses to scare. Sorry.
You sound like a novelist praising his audience hoping they will buy his new book when you defend the SJW generation.
Good try, but less and less people are affected by words like 'conspiracy' or all the '-ism' the left uses to scare. Sorry.
You sound like a novelist praising his audience hoping they will buy his new book when you defend the SJW generation.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Cierzo
Nowhere did I actually praise SJWs at all. 😂 Nor have the people hearting this been SJWs.
I am part of a very different leftist tradition that has different priorities and outlook. But yes, I am also a social progressive and I can spot a straw-man argument. To me it looks like the 'looney-left' tag that the Murdoch press gave socialist Labour Councils in the 1980s. Search hard to find the worst example and then...
I really don't even get how cultural Marxism is supposed to work. How do you get from Foucault and Derrida to the Google HR department and angry teenagers? These things just are not connected and I cannot see the causality.
I did study a bit of postmodernism at University. I found it boring, pretentious and pointless actually. Its a critique against universal truths (such as marxism or liberalism). Its not a plot to take over the world with political correctness.
You sound like a novelist praising his audience hoping they will buy his new book when you defend the SJW generation.
Nowhere did I actually praise SJWs at all. 😂 Nor have the people hearting this been SJWs.
I am part of a very different leftist tradition that has different priorities and outlook. But yes, I am also a social progressive and I can spot a straw-man argument. To me it looks like the 'looney-left' tag that the Murdoch press gave socialist Labour Councils in the 1980s. Search hard to find the worst example and then...
I really don't even get how cultural Marxism is supposed to work. How do you get from Foucault and Derrida to the Google HR department and angry teenagers? These things just are not connected and I cannot see the causality.
I did study a bit of postmodernism at University. I found it boring, pretentious and pointless actually. Its a critique against universal truths (such as marxism or liberalism). Its not a plot to take over the world with political correctness.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@Cierzo
Cultural Marxism a crazy conspiracy theory 😂😂
Unless we're talking about the Frankfurt School, then basically yes.
SatanBurger · 36-40, F
@Cierzo Cultural Marxism literally started in Nazi Germany to smear the Jewish, so yes it's a conspiracy theory. It was then adopted mostly by far right groups and Nazi's STILL (ironically.)
https://similarworlds.com/8226031-I-Am-Going-to-Say-Something-Controversial/1818096-There-is-no-such-thing-as-cultural-marxism-its-a
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism
https://similarworlds.com/8226031-I-Am-Going-to-Say-Something-Controversial/1818096-There-is-no-such-thing-as-cultural-marxism-its-a
A History of Nazi Germany describes how the Weimar Republic brought about increased freedom of expression (modernism), then described by critics as decadent and irrational. Traditionalist Germans thought that this was causing German culture to decay and that society was heading towards a moral collapse.[7]
The Nazis labelled this modernism as "Cultural Bolshevism" and, through "Jewish Bolshevism," claimed that Jews were primarily behind Communism. In particular, they argued that Jews had orchestrated the Russian Revolution and were the main power behind Bolshevist.[7] This Jewish-led Bolshevist assault was described by Adolf Hitler as a disease that would weaken the Germans and leave them prey to the Jews, with Marxism being perceived as just another part of an "international Jewish conspiracy".[7] An ideological objective was thus the "purification" to eliminate alien influences and protect Germany's culture.[7]
Of course, Nazis also conflated Jews with capitalism. Fascist ideology's complicated relationship with capitalism[8] led to Mussolini mainly attacking a "Finance capitalism"Wikipedia's W.svg — the international nature of banks and the stock exchange — and praising a "Heroic capitalism".
In short: if you don't like it, it's probably the Jews.
The Nazis labelled this modernism as "Cultural Bolshevism" and, through "Jewish Bolshevism," claimed that Jews were primarily behind Communism. In particular, they argued that Jews had orchestrated the Russian Revolution and were the main power behind Bolshevist.[7] This Jewish-led Bolshevist assault was described by Adolf Hitler as a disease that would weaken the Germans and leave them prey to the Jews, with Marxism being perceived as just another part of an "international Jewish conspiracy".[7] An ideological objective was thus the "purification" to eliminate alien influences and protect Germany's culture.[7]
Of course, Nazis also conflated Jews with capitalism. Fascist ideology's complicated relationship with capitalism[8] led to Mussolini mainly attacking a "Finance capitalism"Wikipedia's W.svg — the international nature of banks and the stock exchange — and praising a "Heroic capitalism".
In short: if you don't like it, it's probably the Jews.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism
GarryToppins · 36-40, M
Not really. These people do exist. Yes anti-SJW channels have come to outnumber them, but I think that is because the greater society isn't tolerant of SJWs. SJWs are largely college students and are among the most privileged group of people on earth. Never assume a society's trajectory is permanent.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@GarryToppins I never see SJWs mentioned in the mainstream media and google search for SJW has all the top stuff as anti-SJW.
Is that really true though? To critique someone properly, you need to deal with their arguments on their own terms rather than cherry-picked examples by opponents. Its hard to actually find actual SJW arguments because of all the noise.
It exists in a bubble and has little influence so I think my original point was correct.
If you are interested in what SJW's themselves have to say, one of the pinned posts in my profile is by a SJW and is talking about free speech and the left.
It bothers them that they shut down free speech on campus and label everything they disagree with as hate.
Is that really true though? To critique someone properly, you need to deal with their arguments on their own terms rather than cherry-picked examples by opponents. Its hard to actually find actual SJW arguments because of all the noise.
It exists in a bubble and has little influence so I think my original point was correct.
If you are interested in what SJW's themselves have to say, one of the pinned posts in my profile is by a SJW and is talking about free speech and the left.
GarryToppins · 36-40, M
@Burnley123 SJWs don't have arguments. They have feelings.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@GarryToppins they do have arguments. Look at the video
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
It's not just the right that is anti SJW, TJ Kirk, Thunderfoot, Shoeonhead, etc. lean left. SJW targets are the fashionable enemy and it makes sense when you want to be successful on YT. It has been admitted that the SJW is the vocal minority but that doesn't mean they aren't a threat or not growing.
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MartinII · 70-79, M
Your post is far too long to read, but perhaps you could tell an old man like me what an SJW is.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MartinII Social Justice Warrior
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Burnley123 Thank you, but that doesn’t make me much the wiser!
No. People tend to be annoyed by annoying things, and there is nothing more annoying than clueless spoiled brats jumping on 'causes' that they are not the least bit informed about. Leftist progressivism is the political manifestation of social decay. It is intellectual 'rot' and SJW's are the maggots that crawl in it.
revenant · F
I know them. Do you know styxhexenhammer666 ?
DrSunnyTheSkeptic · 26-30, M
I agree that people take things like this as a personal assault instead of addressing issues of society as a whole. I wouldn't give Anita as an example because even in the most clean and pure hearted state of mind it's hard to avoid her personal bias, especially on things that are questionable whether they have any actual impact on how men view women in general. What personally infuriates me the most is that people are dealing with utter bullshit instead of real problems, there is bias on all sides and as soon as you see a name or word all alarms go off in your head and a person is not even willing to see the argument trough, utter Armageddon. We have been reduced from intellectuals to childish camps, girls vs boys, left vs right. Tolerating is one thing when done with the right intentions but when done in a vilifying down your throat kind of manner of course there will be resistance, my very soul wants to cross arms thinking I'd rather be against this than forced to think a certain way and made to feel a villain for daring to question.
SteelHands · 61-69, M
SteelHands · 61-69, M
@Burnley123 and what we have here is absolute and recalcitrant false bullshit.
You know that Marx is foundational to socialism, Lennin Stalin , Kruschev , Hitler , the whole ugly death camp gulag filth to rot shit Putrid and dead failed result.
You should know as well as Peterson.
I'm practically sure people like you know how deadly the lies are that you and they are telling.
You're motive isn't humanistic. It's greed amd lust for the ability to murder your oponents and forcibly confiscate what you want.
You already are benefiting well by the only workable systems of Republican government and free market capitalism but you think you'll be in the historically scant few that gain in the horror of your socialist nazi kremlin panacea.
You well read self appointed phoney baloney card carrying little red book quoting draft dodging do nothing but talk never wielded a shovel or strained a muscle cumguzzling cocaine sniffing disease minded dollops of dog shit can complain we pulled back your false curtain.
You can hurl your racist slurs against us, keep trying to sell your racism to our friends, keep trying to turn our women and our men against each other. You keep telling the little high schoolers they're becoming wiser and more successful by smoking pot. You can keep telling them you'll take the money from the ones who won't hand it over.
Go on. Advise them how I'm so enraged. I promise you that I'm never enraged. People like you don't rate my feelings. You rate a clown nose. You rate a dunce cap.
You're like a little girl complaining she don't have a dick.
You're nothing.
You know that Marx is foundational to socialism, Lennin Stalin , Kruschev , Hitler , the whole ugly death camp gulag filth to rot shit Putrid and dead failed result.
You should know as well as Peterson.
I'm practically sure people like you know how deadly the lies are that you and they are telling.
You're motive isn't humanistic. It's greed amd lust for the ability to murder your oponents and forcibly confiscate what you want.
You already are benefiting well by the only workable systems of Republican government and free market capitalism but you think you'll be in the historically scant few that gain in the horror of your socialist nazi kremlin panacea.
You well read self appointed phoney baloney card carrying little red book quoting draft dodging do nothing but talk never wielded a shovel or strained a muscle cumguzzling cocaine sniffing disease minded dollops of dog shit can complain we pulled back your false curtain.
You can hurl your racist slurs against us, keep trying to sell your racism to our friends, keep trying to turn our women and our men against each other. You keep telling the little high schoolers they're becoming wiser and more successful by smoking pot. You can keep telling them you'll take the money from the ones who won't hand it over.
Go on. Advise them how I'm so enraged. I promise you that I'm never enraged. People like you don't rate my feelings. You rate a clown nose. You rate a dunce cap.
You're like a little girl complaining she don't have a dick.
You're nothing.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SteelHands And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a typically triggered SJW. 😘 🤣
SteelHands · 61-69, M
@Burnley123 Hey dick face. Are you talking to me or stroking your ego pretending that you and me are performing a debate at the Appollo.
You're such a bucket of bullshit. Lol
You're such a bucket of bullshit. Lol
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@QuixoticSoul did I even mention my morality? I was simply pointing out what would of happened if I had been a SJW.
Northwest · M
@hippyjoe1955 higher morality than others 🤣
basilfawlty89 · 36-40, M
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ImperialAerosolKidFromEP · 51-55, M
They probably tolerate Peterson's Christianity, since even Christians have a hard time figuring out if he even is one
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@ImperialAerosolKidFromEP He refuses to say whether he is Christian or not and that is his choice. He is certainly 'culturally Christian' in the sense of ethics and interest in the bible.
ImperialAerosolKidFromEP · 51-55, M
@Burnley123 right, so with that kind of dithering, especially when it comes to God's existence, there's a lot of room for some atheists to be attracted to his much more decisive, secular ideologies
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@ImperialAerosolKidFromEP Being kind to Jordan Peterson, he is much more a disciple of Carl Jung than Jesus Christ. Like Jung, Peterson grew up in a Christian dominant society although he was socialist in his youth. Christians and socialists are not the same.
jackjjackson · 70-79, M
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@jackjjackson A lot of discourse is like that sadly.