Is the rage against SJWs a huge Straw-Man argument?

I've been on Youtube a lot recently and the whole place is awash with SJW hatred.In fact, there is so much anti-SJW hatred, that it outnumbers anything actually posted online by SJWs by about ten to one.

On Youtube, you have a wide and diverse range of anti-SJW and anti-feminist opinions, all of which say pretty much exactly the same thing. You get people who call themselves 'classical liberals,' including Dave Ruben and the Skeptic Community, all of which got bored hating on religion and seemed to decide that attacking SJWs was a more marketable past-time now. They like Jordan Peterson too and he is a Christian so work that one out. You also have the alt-rightish commentators and people like (the unpretentiously named) Sargon of Akad who is kind of in-between the two. If you want a video of a crazy student being 'triggered,' it is easier to find than a funny cat video.

I know there are some nutty students on University campuses and on Tumblr. No shit. They are young people on the internet. They also have minority views and have little power. So why the rage against them?

I just think its the tried a trusted political tactic of taking the worst example of a ridiculous thing a political opponent can do and then making it representative of the entire political left. Pick an angry student on a bad day and film them doing something crazy. Then say; "See! This is what 'the left' is like".

Its taken even further too because the 'Cultural Marxist' conspiracy theory seeks to explain how these young and excitable defenders of minority causes are seeking to take over the entire Western World. Jordan Peterson calls it 'Post-Modern Neo-Marxism' and this seems to be the same as 'Cultural Marxism'. I.E. A batshit crazy conspiracy which thinks Marxist theory was a theory of how to control people and that Post-Modernist theory was about control of culture.

Peterson may be an excellent psychologist but he should probably stick to that because he doesn't seem to understand Marxism, Post-Modernism or the word 'Neo'. The idea that a few French intellectuals in the 60s and 70s who represented a (never-dominant) faction within social-science academia could take over the world is ridiculous.

The west has been moving towards more progressive cultural values but a lot of that is due to the decline in Christianity and the more individualistic and atomised way that we live these days. Social diversity is a result of technology, travel and free-market capitalism. It's not because of some French dude in the 60s who nobody has read, nor is it down to a purple-haired 19-year-old who shouts a lot. None of that affects you at all, actually.

Most SJWs see themselves as defending the rights of minority groups, yet the entirety of the political right on Youtube thinks that [i]it [/i]is a besieged minority group which is denied free speech (it isn't, they are allowed to say all kinds of crap on Youtube and some are even NAZIs).

I know Youtube politics is silly but these people do have influence. Some have north of a million subscribers and a lot of people take them seriously. Really though, this shouldn't happen.

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CountScrofula · 41-45, M Best Comment

I have a lot to say on this so be patient ;)

So this all comes from the rise of the 'manosphere' which is the political world of anti-feminism and populist right ideas that has a million subgroups. Alt-right, MRAs, red-pillers, centipedes, incels, Peterson fanboys, gamergaters, etc...

Issue #1 is the internet. We're now communicating in far more mixed spaces. Activists and apolitical people are now all talking about movies or music or games online, and the activist ideas start to assert themselves. When I was 20, only feminists had heard of rape culture. Nowadays, everyone has heard of the concept because it gets mentioned when they're reading up on a personal interest.

And what that means is that a full on challenge to the status quo will resonate [i]far[/i] more than it did. If Anita Sarkeesian did speaking tours on video games in the 90s, nobody would have cared. But when she posted Tropes vs. Women a ton of young men [i]lost their fucking minds[/i] because it was a personal intrusion into what they felt was their space and their comfortable status quo.

Issue #2 is that the interactions online are nasty, and that's not all on the right wingers. I have a friend who is in his early 40s and means well and is trying to get feminist ideas. But he posted the equivalent to a 'not all men' thing and got dogpiled and ridiculed. To me, this looked like my friends were trying to intentionally push this guy into men's rights activism. The difference between an attack on patriarchy and a personal attack are huge, but a lot of guys do not understand this distinction, and are expected to just magically get woke on their own.

Issue #3 is that there is incredible social alienation going on right now. The hegemony is falling apart, and people are looking for something to believe in. So they're flocking to difference areas in this manosphere, and particularly someone like Peterson is deeply compelling for someone who wants answers, and is highly resentful of progressives from personal experience. And all of these thinkers place the blame squarely on 'the other' whether it be feminists or immigrants or university professors or what have you. Someone else is at fault, and you have to stop them.

Issue #4 is I really believe the left from social democrats to anarchists have done a piss-poor job of offering up a real alternative. Populist right wing ideas completely seized on this territory and we're left arguing about whether or not eating Taco Bell is cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is a real thing, but we need to recognize it in the context of working together and organizing - not in just finding stuff to shame people over.

Issue #5 is fake news and distortion of truth. There is so much information out there, people need someone to explain it, and who better than Jordan Peterson or another analyst? They [i]tell people what they want to hear[/i]. Again and again and again I see people with false understandings about what basic left concepts are. The right are doing a better job of corrupting left wing concepts, than the left are of promoting them.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CountScrofula I posted a lot but you seemed to widen the topic even further to include cultural politics of the entire internet. 😂

I do agree with what you say though, in particular, the strategy of the left being lacking and also the habit ostracising people.

Cenk Uger was kicked out of the Justice Democrats (which he founded) because of some sexist comments twenty years ago. An apology should have been sufficient really.

There are aspects of the left with are pious and looking to be the holiest person in Christendom, rather than to persuade people and take them with you. That is the Nagle thesis anyway.

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@Burnley123 Hah, sorry hung over and I get tunnel vision. But the short is people readily lap up misinformation because it's easier to do so than deal with the arguments on their own terms. When this is coupled with a Catholic style obsession with personal purity and requiring people to endlessly repent for sins they can never be cleansed of you get this result.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@CountScrofula Yes. Also, leading on from your points, a lot of online politics is about group identity. Tumblr and parts of Twitter do make me think that the right has a point sometimes because a lot of people seem to be in a 'wokeness' contest with their peer group, rather than trying to persuade people outside the group.

I can believe what happened to the friend you know. I think it's about understanding where people are, understanding their terms and engaging with them.

I'm glad I'm involved with politics IRL and that my political education comes from places other than Youtube. Others are not so lucky though.

I think that the left needs to get better on Youtube. That is why Contrapoints is such a good thing. She is funny and engages with her opponent's arguments properly, whilst at the same time being unapologetically a transgender leftist SJW.

Northwest · M

@CountScrofula agree with much of what you said, but anarchy and left politics are not the same.

Northwest · M

@Burnley123 I use logical arguments, for the most part, but how do you debate logically, with a hippy joe, who genuinely believes Jesus talk to him?

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Northwest You are logical in the way you argue, even at times when we have disagreed.

You cannot debate with Hippy Joe because he's just too indoctrinated.

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@Northwest Sure and those distinctions matter, but I think for the purpose of my argument an anarchist vs a liberal are going to have the same issues I'm talking about with identity politics and how it can alienate potential allies. IMHO a major problem with a lot of anarchists is they're engaging in really liberal thinking and treating social stratification as something you resolve on an individual rather than structural basis.