Proof that Trump lost the debate

Remember two and a half months ago (has it only been that long?) when Biden lost the debate against Trump? The reason we knew he lost was because Democrats were saying it. There were also excuses for his poor performance, like "he had a cold," but the main discussion was about replacing him at the top of the ticket. I don't remember anyone saying he won. There were a few articles about how if you ignored his weak, barely audible delivery and awkward pauses, and focused on his actual words, he was very detailed in contrast with Trump's bombast and fire hose of lies. But overall, Democrats were admitting he lost.

The same thing is happening now on the Republican side. Of course, the hard-core MAGAs are saying Trump won, but he could have pulled his pants down and taken a dump right on stage and they'd still say he won. But outside the cult, they're admitting he lost. The proof is that they're giving excuses for his performance, like "the moderators were biased" or "Harris got the questions in advance" or my favorite, "Harris' earrings were actually earbuds and someone was feeding her the answers" (maybe Pete Buttigieg or Barack Obama?). No one ever makes excuses for the winner, just the loser. Even Trump knows he lost, because he felt the need to come out right after and handle the spin himself. His excuse was that the moderators fact-checked him, but not Harris. Of course, she didn't say anything as outrageous as Haitian immigrants are eating the fine house pets of Ohio, a meme currently making its way around the right-wing internet, and one JD Vance is doubling down on.

Whether this debate moves the needle at all remains to be seen. Winning a debate isn't winning an election. Electoral-vote.com has a summary here:

https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2024/Items/Sep12-1.html

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ShadowSister · 51-55, F

I don't understand the "undecided" voters. I understand why someone might leery towards Harris. Let's say someone doesn't agree with her policies. Okay, most of us don't. I certainly have my issues with her. So for the sake of argument, let's concede that she's a bad candidate. If so, she's bad like junk food.

Her opponent is bad like cyanide.

Why is this even still something we are having a national conversation about?

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LeopoldBloom · M

@ShadowSister Some people aren't that dialed in to politics. The first presidential election I voted in was 1980, between Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. At the time, I thought "there's no difference between the two parties" and probably voted Libertarian or Communist.

LeopoldBloom · M

@emiliya You're projecting. Jill Stein is a Russian stooge whose only reason for appearing on the ballot is to take votes away from the Democrat. And if you want to see a grab for absolute power, read the 2025 Project (also known as the presidential transition plan) and its vision for turning America into a christofascist dictatorship. And please don't tell me "Trump distanced himself from it." Of course he did, it's toxic. But his running mate wrote the forward to the Heritage Foundation president's upcoming book. Project 2025 is Trump's agenda. If you disagree, tell me what you don't like about it.

ShadowSister · 51-55, F

@emiliya Those are strong assertions. It's your right to make such a judgement call, but it's not a viewpoint I share. Oh, I have no deep love for politicians. I don't think it's likely that anyone at that level is above reproach. Many of us have a growing (and justified) fear that if the Republican candidate is elected, it will literally be the end of democracy as we know it. The stakes are high. A lot of people don't have much grace for anyone who would voice opposition to the only ticket that has a chance of beating Trump. It's a shame how Chappell Roan was badgered for refusing to endorse Harris.

Politics doesn't work like shopping. When I go shopping, if I like some off brand that nobody else has ever heard of, I choose that brand, pay for it, and go home with the product I wanted. In politics, if I cast my vote for a third-party candidate, I am more likely to walk out with the guy I like the least. And when that candidate has literally promised to be a dictator on day one, yeah no.

emiliya · 22-25, F

@ShadowSister What democracy are you talking about? America has no democracy.

Why is it necessary to stop Trump? He is just a man trying to win an election in an undemocratic country. Trump is no more a dictator than anyone else. What's worse: to be run by multiple dictators, or by one? Multiple dictators tend to complicate things, especially when they want war and are interested in destroying their country.

emiliya · 22-25, F

@LeopoldBloom What is wrong with Project 25? Every government has an agenda. Some will find it good, and some will find it bad. Project 25 is no different to liberals enforcing their wants, many of which are not shared by large numbers of people.

LeopoldBloom · M

@emiliya Exactly. Project 2025 is standard conservative dogma. So when Trump says he doesn't support it, he's lying, and you know he's lying, or you wouldn't vote for him. If Trump truly opposed Project 2025, he'd be a liberal.

And of course every government has an agenda. Project 2025 is a bad agenda that will harm the country. So I oppose it, and I oppose Trump and Vance because they support it. The reason Trump lies about not supporting it is because people found out what's in it and don't like it.

emiliya · 22-25, F

@LeopoldBloom The Democrats and media have given us a poor impression of Project 25. This is a controversy they have engineered. For this reason, Trump has felt the need to publicly distance himself from it. It only serves to make it look more harmful and more unusual. Most people only read the headlines and the name. They hear the words “project 25”, “dictator”, “threat to democracy” and get strange ideas put into their heads.

“Project 2025 is a bad agenda that will harm the country.”

It is a bad agenda for you. It would not be a bad agenda for me. I am not American, so cannot vote in your elections.

LeopoldBloom · M

@emiliya I read Project 2025. It's just as bad as they say it is. At least you admit that Trump is only claiming to not support it because it's become toxic, not because he doesn't actually support it. Some of its proposals aren't practical as they would require a constitutional amendment. Others would require the Republicans to control not just the presidency, but both houses of Congress. Other proposals, like destroying the federal government by replacing knowledgeable employees with Heritage Foundation lackeys, could be implemented by the President alone.

I'm glad you can't vote in our elections. You're entitled to your opinion as to which American policies would be better for you in your country. The US economy is so large, it affects the entire world. A depression in the US would lead to a worldwide depression. Aside from the harm Project 2025 would inflict on Americans in their daily lives (through lack of regulation and making the government ineffective), by tanking the economy, it would have a bad effect on people in other countries. May I ask what country you're in?

emiliya · 22-25, F

@LeopoldBloom I am from southwest Russia, but I am living in UK. All governments are dictatorial in nature, to varying degrees. I do not think being run by a large group of dictators is better than one or a few dictators in government. It seems we have come to think that more people making decisions means more freedom.

What do you think is bad about Project 25? Why would Trump damage global economies? He wants America to be rich and successful.

Which proposals would require constitutional amendments?

LeopoldBloom · M

@emiliya Here's a list of some of the things Project 2025 would do, with page references. I consider every one of these to be harmful. Since Trump and Vance plan to implement Project 2025, I can't support him (aside from him being a convicted felon, along with facing charges for attempting to overturn a lawful election, and very likely having raped dozens of women and children). I also approve of how President Biden has done his job and think Vice-President Harris will continue the same policies, so I plan to vote for her for that reason.

Of course, if you support Project 2025, then I guess you should support Trump.

Maybe you can tell me what you see on here that you like.