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ElwoodBlues · M
@DogMan says
(1) Witnesses testified that the banks did rely on Trump's fraudulent claims.
(2) Witnesses testified that if they had had an accurate picture of Trump's financial state, he would not have gotten the highly favorable interest rates that he got. If Trump had filed accurate statements he would have had to pay much, much more interest (if they would have given the loans at all).
(3) The penalty was calculated based on that, and the details are all spelled out in the ruling. He defrauded the banks out of the higher interest he would have had to pay in order to get the loans. "No harm was done" is plainly false.
(4) The "no harm was done" defense is so insanely dumb that Trump's lawyers didn't even attempt it in court. (But see the update below for a related "nobody complained" defense.)
Think about how little sense it makes. If you embezzle a million dollars Friday just before the banks close, fly to vegas and bet it all on red at the roulette wheel, and win, and return the million dollars plus interest on Monday as soon as the banks open, would you expect a "no one got hurt" defense to get you acquitted when you go to trial?
Some quotes from the ruling:
(1) For example, p. 9:
In deciding to approve the credit facility, Haigh relied on Donald Trump’s 2011 SFC and assumed that the representations of value of the assets and liabilities were “broadly accurate.” TT 1009-1010; PX 330. The Deutsche Bank Credit Report’s “Financial Analysis” is based on numbers provided by the “family office” (here, the Trump Organization) and contains the same numbers represented in the SFC. PX 293; TT 1010-1013.
And p. 68:
The evidence adduced at trial makes clear that Deutsche Bank relied on the SFCs for the information to underwrite, approve, and maintain the credit facilities on Doral, Trump Chicago, and the Old Post Office. PX 293, PX 3041 at ¶¶ 452-54, 456-466, 476.
And more. And on p. 75 it discusses how absurd this defense was:
Defendants have argued vociferously throughout the trial that there can be no fraud as, they assert, that none of the banks or insurance companies relied on any of the alleged misrepresentations. The proponents of this theory posit that lenders demand complex statements of financial condition but then ignore them.
And (next paragraph) it wouldn't make any difference as a matter of law:
Defendants’ argument is to no avail, as none of plaintiff’s causes of action requires that it demonstrate reliance. Instead, plaintiff must merely show that defendants intended to commit the fraud. Reliance is not a requisite element of either Executive Law § 63(12) or of any of the alleged Penal Law violations.
And (next paragraph) even though it wasn't a requisite element, the claim made by the defense is clearly false:
However, the Court notes that, although not required, there is ample documentary and testimonial evidence that the banks, insurance companies, and the City of New York did, in fact, rely on defendants to be truthful and accurate in their financial submissions. The testimony in this case makes abundantly clear that most, if not all, loans began life based on numbers on an SFC, which the lenders interpreted in their own unique way. The testimony confirmed, rather than refuted, the overriding importance of SFCs in lending decisions.
(2) p. 68:
The record is also clear that Donald Trump would not have received the credit facilities from the Private Wealth Management Division, and the favorable interest rates that came with that, had he not executed an unconditional, “ironclad,” personal guarantee. Moreover, the Private Wealth Management Division was willing to accept the personal guarantees based upon false SFCs.
(3) Here's part of the "disgorgement of ill-gotten gains" calculation, from p. 86:
McCarty calculated the differences between interest rates and determined the following ill-gotten interest savings, which this Court hereby adopts as the most reasonable approximation of the ill- gotten interest rate savings upon which evidence was presented at trial: (1) $72,908,308 from 2014-2022 on the Doral loan; (2) $53,423,209 from 2015-2022 on the Old Post Office loan; (3) $17,443,359 from 2014-2022 on the Chicago loan; and (4) $24,265,291 from 2015-2022 on the 40 Wall Street loan.
In total, defendants’ fraud saved them approximately $168,040,168 in interest, which shall be imposed, jointly and severally, among Donald Trump and the defendant entities that he owns and controls, as the misconduct at issue was committed by the Trump Organization’s top management.
None of it was fraud, the lenders were ALL ok with everything he said and did.
!!! DEAD WRONG !!!(1) Witnesses testified that the banks did rely on Trump's fraudulent claims.
(2) Witnesses testified that if they had had an accurate picture of Trump's financial state, he would not have gotten the highly favorable interest rates that he got. If Trump had filed accurate statements he would have had to pay much, much more interest (if they would have given the loans at all).
(3) The penalty was calculated based on that, and the details are all spelled out in the ruling. He defrauded the banks out of the higher interest he would have had to pay in order to get the loans. "No harm was done" is plainly false.
(4) The "no harm was done" defense is so insanely dumb that Trump's lawyers didn't even attempt it in court. (But see the update below for a related "nobody complained" defense.)
Think about how little sense it makes. If you embezzle a million dollars Friday just before the banks close, fly to vegas and bet it all on red at the roulette wheel, and win, and return the million dollars plus interest on Monday as soon as the banks open, would you expect a "no one got hurt" defense to get you acquitted when you go to trial?
Some quotes from the ruling:
(1) For example, p. 9:
In deciding to approve the credit facility, Haigh relied on Donald Trump’s 2011 SFC and assumed that the representations of value of the assets and liabilities were “broadly accurate.” TT 1009-1010; PX 330. The Deutsche Bank Credit Report’s “Financial Analysis” is based on numbers provided by the “family office” (here, the Trump Organization) and contains the same numbers represented in the SFC. PX 293; TT 1010-1013.
And p. 68:
The evidence adduced at trial makes clear that Deutsche Bank relied on the SFCs for the information to underwrite, approve, and maintain the credit facilities on Doral, Trump Chicago, and the Old Post Office. PX 293, PX 3041 at ¶¶ 452-54, 456-466, 476.
And more. And on p. 75 it discusses how absurd this defense was:
Defendants have argued vociferously throughout the trial that there can be no fraud as, they assert, that none of the banks or insurance companies relied on any of the alleged misrepresentations. The proponents of this theory posit that lenders demand complex statements of financial condition but then ignore them.
And (next paragraph) it wouldn't make any difference as a matter of law:
Defendants’ argument is to no avail, as none of plaintiff’s causes of action requires that it demonstrate reliance. Instead, plaintiff must merely show that defendants intended to commit the fraud. Reliance is not a requisite element of either Executive Law § 63(12) or of any of the alleged Penal Law violations.
And (next paragraph) even though it wasn't a requisite element, the claim made by the defense is clearly false:
However, the Court notes that, although not required, there is ample documentary and testimonial evidence that the banks, insurance companies, and the City of New York did, in fact, rely on defendants to be truthful and accurate in their financial submissions. The testimony in this case makes abundantly clear that most, if not all, loans began life based on numbers on an SFC, which the lenders interpreted in their own unique way. The testimony confirmed, rather than refuted, the overriding importance of SFCs in lending decisions.
(2) p. 68:
The record is also clear that Donald Trump would not have received the credit facilities from the Private Wealth Management Division, and the favorable interest rates that came with that, had he not executed an unconditional, “ironclad,” personal guarantee. Moreover, the Private Wealth Management Division was willing to accept the personal guarantees based upon false SFCs.
(3) Here's part of the "disgorgement of ill-gotten gains" calculation, from p. 86:
McCarty calculated the differences between interest rates and determined the following ill-gotten interest savings, which this Court hereby adopts as the most reasonable approximation of the ill- gotten interest rate savings upon which evidence was presented at trial: (1) $72,908,308 from 2014-2022 on the Doral loan; (2) $53,423,209 from 2015-2022 on the Old Post Office loan; (3) $17,443,359 from 2014-2022 on the Chicago loan; and (4) $24,265,291 from 2015-2022 on the 40 Wall Street loan.
In total, defendants’ fraud saved them approximately $168,040,168 in interest, which shall be imposed, jointly and severally, among Donald Trump and the defendant entities that he owns and controls, as the misconduct at issue was committed by the Trump Organization’s top management.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues LOL, which valuation are you using....sellers value, purchasing buyers value, State property's assers value, insurance companies value....
ElwoodBlues · M
@sunsporter1649
Valuing occupied residences as if vacant, valuing restricted land as if unrestricted, valuing an apartment as if it were triple its actual size, valuing property many times the amount of concealed appraisals, valuing planned buildings as if completed and ready to rent, valuing golf courses with brand premium while claiming not to, and valuing restricted funds as cash, are not subjective differences of opinion, they are misstatements at best and fraud at worst," the judge wrote.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues LOL, which valuation are you using....sellers value, purchasing buyers value, State property's assers value, insurance companies value....
ElwoodBlues · M
@sunsporter1649
Valuing occupied residences as if vacant, valuing restricted land as if unrestricted, valuing an apartment as if it were triple its actual size, valuing property many times the amount of concealed appraisals, valuing planned buildings as if completed and ready to rent, valuing golf courses with brand premium while claiming not to, and valuing restricted funds as cash, are not subjective differences of opinion, they are misstatements at best and fraud at worst," the judge wrote.
DogMan · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues
ElwoodBlues · M
@sunsporter1649
Valuing occupied residences as if vacant, valuing restricted land as if unrestricted, valuing an apartment as if it were triple its actual size, valuing property many times the amount of concealed appraisals, valuing planned buildings as if completed and ready to rent, valuing golf courses with brand premium while claiming not to, and valuing restricted funds as cash, are not subjective differences of opinion, they are misstatements at best and fraud at worst," the judge wrote.
If he had not been running for office, it would have been considered a misstatement. but since it was Trump it was labeled
as fraud.
Thank you EB now we know the truth
ElwoodBlues · M
@sunsporter1649
Valuing occupied residences as if vacant, valuing restricted land as if unrestricted, valuing an apartment as if it were triple its actual size, valuing property many times the amount of concealed appraisals, valuing planned buildings as if completed and ready to rent, valuing golf courses with brand premium while claiming not to, and valuing restricted funds as cash, are not subjective differences of opinion, they are misstatements at best and fraud at worst," the judge wrote.
If he had not been running for office, it would have been considered a misstatement. but since it was Trump it was labeled
as fraud.
Thank you EB now we know the truth
ElwoodBlues · M
@DogMan At least you're admitting tRump broke the law; that's a step in the right direction.
"The law under which Ms. James sued, known by its shorthand 63(12), requires the plaintiff to show a defendant’s conduct was deceptive. If that standard is met, a judge can impose severe punishment, including forfeiting the money obtained through fraud. Ms. James has also used this law against the oil company ExxonMobil, the tobacco brand Juul and the pharma executive Martin Shkreli."
"The law under which Ms. James sued, known by its shorthand 63(12), requires the plaintiff to show a defendant’s conduct was deceptive. If that standard is met, a judge can impose severe punishment, including forfeiting the money obtained through fraud. Ms. James has also used this law against the oil company ExxonMobil, the tobacco brand Juul and the pharma executive Martin Shkreli."
DogMan · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues Misstating is not breaking the law. The judge in your post said that.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues So a crooked attorney has prosecuted a victim of lawfare for doing the exact same thing the crooked attorney is doing. Interesting
ElwoodBlues · M
@DogMan "misstatements at best and fraud at worst," the judge wrote.
In this case it was judged intentionally fraudulent.
In this case it was judged intentionally fraudulent.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues Is that the same judge that told the world that Mar-A-Lago was worth $18,000,000, or some other judge, like the judge that has a duaghter that works for that get Trump group?
ElwoodBlues · M
@sunsporter1649 NO, the judge did NOT say that.
@DogMan If you're concerned about how this case got started, it's because tRump's former lawyer dropped a dime on him.
The issue first came to light when Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, testified before Congress on Feb 27, 2019 and presented documents from Trump showing a huge range of valuations for some properties.
@DogMan If you're concerned about how this case got started, it's because tRump's former lawyer dropped a dime on him.
The issue first came to light when Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, testified before Congress on Feb 27, 2019 and presented documents from Trump showing a huge range of valuations for some properties.
Mr. Cohen told members of the House Oversight Committee that he was there when the documents were presented to Deutsche Bank. “I believe these numbers are inflated,” he told the committee. He did not elaborate on which assets he was referring to or to what degree their values were exaggerated.
But the documents provide a glimpse of values Mr. Trump assigned to some of his properties that are out of line with other available estimates.
On his 2012 balance sheet, Mr. Trump described an estate he owns in Westchester County, N.Y., as being worth $291 million. He bought the property, Seven Springs, in 1996 for $7.5 million. In 2018,
Mr. Trump said in a federal ethics filing that the property was worth no more than $50 million.
But the documents provide a glimpse of values Mr. Trump assigned to some of his properties that are out of line with other available estimates.
On his 2012 balance sheet, Mr. Trump described an estate he owns in Westchester County, N.Y., as being worth $291 million. He bought the property, Seven Springs, in 1996 for $7.5 million. In 2018,
Mr. Trump said in a federal ethics filing that the property was worth no more than $50 million.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues The Manhattan judge deciding Donald Trump’s fate at his civil fraud trial Monday stood by the $18 million valuation of the former president’s sprawling Mar-a-Lago estate — despite real estate experts blasting the estimate as “utterly delusional.”
Justice Arthur Engoron again rejected Trump’s claims that Mar-a-Lago is worth $1 billion in favor of the much lower valuation issued by local Florida officials.
However, Engoron implored the media to stop reporting that he’d been the one to value the golf club and resort at $18 million — the low end of a determination made by the Palm Beach assessor that has left many real estate industry insiders perplexed.
One prominent Palm Beach real estate broker labeled the valuation “utterly delusional” to The Post.
“Please, press, stop saying that I valued it at $18 million,” Engoron pleaded, as the trial kicked off in Manhattan Supreme Court in New York Attorney General Letitia James’ $250 million lawsuit against the former president, the Trump Organization and sons Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr.
The judge interjected the comment as Trump lawyer Alina Habba had been repeating during her opening remarks that the Palm Beach estate would sell for roughly $1 billion — a figure that Engoron rejected last week in a bombshell ruling.
In his decision, Engoron — who is deciding the trial rather than a jury — cited a local Palm Beach County official saying the country club had been assessed at a range of between $18 million and $27 million between 2011 and 2021.
Justice Arthur Engoron again rejected Trump’s claims that Mar-a-Lago is worth $1 billion in favor of the much lower valuation issued by local Florida officials.
However, Engoron implored the media to stop reporting that he’d been the one to value the golf club and resort at $18 million — the low end of a determination made by the Palm Beach assessor that has left many real estate industry insiders perplexed.
One prominent Palm Beach real estate broker labeled the valuation “utterly delusional” to The Post.
“Please, press, stop saying that I valued it at $18 million,” Engoron pleaded, as the trial kicked off in Manhattan Supreme Court in New York Attorney General Letitia James’ $250 million lawsuit against the former president, the Trump Organization and sons Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr.
The judge interjected the comment as Trump lawyer Alina Habba had been repeating during her opening remarks that the Palm Beach estate would sell for roughly $1 billion — a figure that Engoron rejected last week in a bombshell ruling.
In his decision, Engoron — who is deciding the trial rather than a jury — cited a local Palm Beach County official saying the country club had been assessed at a range of between $18 million and $27 million between 2011 and 2021.
ElwoodBlues · M
@sunsporter1649 Yep, the judge was quoting the Palm Beach Assessor; it was not his own estimate of value.
@DogMan If you're concerned about how this case got started, it's because tRump's former lawyer dropped a dime on him.
The issue first came to light when Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, testified before Congress on Feb 27, 2019 and presented documents from Trump showing a huge range of valuations for some properties.
@DogMan If you're concerned about how this case got started, it's because tRump's former lawyer dropped a dime on him.
The issue first came to light when Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, testified before Congress on Feb 27, 2019 and presented documents from Trump showing a huge range of valuations for some properties.
Mr. Cohen told members of the House Oversight Committee that he was there when the documents were presented to Deutsche Bank. “I believe these numbers are inflated,” he told the committee. He did not elaborate on which assets he was referring to or to what degree their values were exaggerated.
But the documents provide a glimpse of values Mr. Trump assigned to some of his properties that are out of line with other available estimates.
On his 2012 balance sheet, Mr. Trump described an estate he owns in Westchester County, N.Y., as being worth $291 million. He bought the property, Seven Springs, in 1996 for $7.5 million. In 2018,
Mr. Trump said in a federal ethics filing that the property was worth no more than $50 million.
But the documents provide a glimpse of values Mr. Trump assigned to some of his properties that are out of line with other available estimates.
On his 2012 balance sheet, Mr. Trump described an estate he owns in Westchester County, N.Y., as being worth $291 million. He bought the property, Seven Springs, in 1996 for $7.5 million. In 2018,
Mr. Trump said in a federal ethics filing that the property was worth no more than $50 million.





