Why do Dems want maskless ICE agents?
Is it so they can send Christmas cards to the agents' families?
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TinyViolins · 31-35, M
It's about accountability. What they currently are is a nameless, faceless secret police force unaccountable to both the community and local government. They have been documented numerous times conducting unlawful searches without a warrant. There are numerous allegations of them manhandling and using excessive force to detain people, including US citizens.
The long and short of it is they are violating people's rights without any legal consequences. Having them show their face is a way to hold them accountable to the people. After all, isn't that what the US is all about?
The long and short of it is they are violating people's rights without any legal consequences. Having them show their face is a way to hold them accountable to the people. After all, isn't that what the US is all about?
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@TinyViolins
Again, you guys can dance around bullshit moral issues all you want, but you won't confront the real reason ICE is protected, because it doesn't suit your moral superiority. It's so they can do their jobs without fear of retaliation from leftist criminals like Antifa. You saw they just arrested 10 of them for attacking law enforcement.
faceless secret police force unaccountable to both the community and local government.
So is the FBI. So is the NSA. So is the Secret Service. This isn't a valid point.They have been documented numerous times conducting unlawful searches without a warrant
You don't know that. There are numerous allegations of them manhandling and using excessive force to detain people, including US citizens.
And they have been reported and investigated, just like any other law enforecment agency. The long and short of it is they are violating people's rights without any legal consequences
People in this country illegally don't have the same rights as citizens. Again, you guys can dance around bullshit moral issues all you want, but you won't confront the real reason ICE is protected, because it doesn't suit your moral superiority. It's so they can do their jobs without fear of retaliation from leftist criminals like Antifa. You saw they just arrested 10 of them for attacking law enforcement.
markinkansas · 61-69, M
@TinyViolins and with out id also.. anyone can fake being a ice agent .. so no mask a good thing
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SumKindaMunster
The 14th Amendment guarantees rights to 'persons' in the US, not 'citizens', which guarantees them equal protection under the law as long as they are physically present in the US. Those protections include the 4th and 5th Amendments.
You speak of moral superiority, yet you're the one flaunting this us vs. them self-righteousness. I'm not -nor have I ever identified as - a Democrat. It's a box people with no ability to think critically put me into because they can't stand to have their propaganda challenged.
How many of them are snatching people up with their faces covered? Why should ICE be held to different standards than everyone else?
Stuff like that is what happens when there is no accountability for the officers. A bill like this would help single out bad actors and hold them responsible
People in this country illegally don't have the same rights as citizens
The 14th Amendment guarantees rights to 'persons' in the US, not 'citizens', which guarantees them equal protection under the law as long as they are physically present in the US. Those protections include the 4th and 5th Amendments.
you guys
You speak of moral superiority, yet you're the one flaunting this us vs. them self-righteousness. I'm not -nor have I ever identified as - a Democrat. It's a box people with no ability to think critically put me into because they can't stand to have their propaganda challenged.
So is the FBI. So is the NSA. So is the Secret Service. This isn't a valid point.
How many of them are snatching people up with their faces covered? Why should ICE be held to different standards than everyone else?
You don't know that.
I know proof means absolutely nothing to you, but there's video evidence all over social media. And there are numerous testimonies of people speaking to reporters alleging the same thing happening to them. At some point, there's a grain of truth to all these accusations. Or maybe you still believe Bill Cosby is innocent.You saw they just arrested 10 of them for attacking law enforcement.
Stuff like that is what happens when there is no accountability for the officers. A bill like this would help single out bad actors and hold them responsible
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@TinyViolins
Point of clarity: The 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection under the law to all persons in the U.S., regardless of citizenship status. But that doesn’t mean everyone is exempt from legal consequences. Here's how it plays out:
- Being undocumented is a violation of immigration law—not criminal law in most cases, but a civil one.
- Equal protection means undocumented immigrants must be treated fairly and lawfully during enforcement—not that they’re immune from it.
- They still have rights: due process, legal representation (at their own expense), and protection from indefinite detention
You speak of moral superiority, yet you're the one flaunting this us vs. them self-righteousness. I'm not -nor have I ever identified as - a Democrat. It's a box people with no ability to think critically put me into because they can't stand to have their propaganda challenged.
I never called you a Democrat. My comment was based on your general responses that I have read over the last several years of you making such comments. I don't think I misrepresented your position here.
For the reasons discussed all over this thread. To protect them and their families from being doxxed or retaliated against for doing their jobs.
Proof means a lot to me. Hearsay on social media is not proof. However, I concede that there will certainly be mistakes made. People who shouldn't be arrested might be. Somebody could get hurt if they react violently.
Is that really the issue or is it you just don't want ICE enforcing immigration laws in this country?
The 14th Amendment guarantees rights to 'persons' in the US, not 'citizens', which guarantees them equal protection under the law as long as they are physically present in the US. Those protections include the 4th and 5th Amendments.
Point of clarity: The 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection under the law to all persons in the U.S., regardless of citizenship status. But that doesn’t mean everyone is exempt from legal consequences. Here's how it plays out:
- Being undocumented is a violation of immigration law—not criminal law in most cases, but a civil one.
- Equal protection means undocumented immigrants must be treated fairly and lawfully during enforcement—not that they’re immune from it.
- They still have rights: due process, legal representation (at their own expense), and protection from indefinite detention
You speak of moral superiority, yet you're the one flaunting this us vs. them self-righteousness. I'm not -nor have I ever identified as - a Democrat. It's a box people with no ability to think critically put me into because they can't stand to have their propaganda challenged.
I never called you a Democrat. My comment was based on your general responses that I have read over the last several years of you making such comments. I don't think I misrepresented your position here.
So is the FBI. So is the NSA. So is the Secret Service. This isn't a valid point.
How many of them are snatching people up with their faces covered? Why should ICE be held to different standards than everyone else?
How many of them are snatching people up with their faces covered? Why should ICE be held to different standards than everyone else?
For the reasons discussed all over this thread. To protect them and their families from being doxxed or retaliated against for doing their jobs.
know proof means absolutely nothing to you, but there's video evidence all over social media. And there are numerous testimonies of people speaking to reporters alleging the same thing happening to them. At some point, there's a grain of truth to all these accusations. Or maybe you still believe Bill Cosby is innocent
Proof means a lot to me. Hearsay on social media is not proof. However, I concede that there will certainly be mistakes made. People who shouldn't be arrested might be. Somebody could get hurt if they react violently.
Stuff like that is what happens when there is no accountability for the officers. A bill like this would help single out bad actors and hold them responsible
Hm, they are held responsible and accountable by their superiors. You just may not know it. It's a government service with guidelines, rules, regulations and processes and consequences.Is that really the issue or is it you just don't want ICE enforcing immigration laws in this country?
BrandNewMan · M
@markinkansas How exactly does just seeing their face verify them as ICE?
Completely baseless statement.
Completely baseless statement.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SumKindaMunster
That should include ICE agents who are violating US citizens' constitutional rights. There are several instances of ICE detaining and arresting citizens on suspicions of them being in the country illegally, sometimes for hours or days at a time.
But that begs the question, doesn't it, of how can ICE tell whether or not a person legally belongs in the US? It's not like people are walking around with their birth certificate stapled to their chests.
The reason people share their videos and stories through social media and news outlets is because the DHS is refusing to release data on how many US citizens and legal residents are being detained or taken into custody. It's not being transparent for searches conducted or arrests made without valid warrants.
But since you concede that mistakes will certainly be made, how do you reconcile that with the Trump administration setting arrest quotas for their agents? It's not like illegal aliens are going to walk right up to these detention centers to turn themselves in.
The reality is that these agents are on the hunt for anyone they think matches a description. There are several reports from across the country of Hispanic and Native American people being stopped, detained, and even handcuffed by ICE in order to prove their citizenship. How is that not akin to having a police state?
How do you know for certain that they are? Especially since we don't even know who these agents are behind their face coverings
How many police officers or federal agents or their families have been retaliated against as a result of doxxing? Feel free to look it up, but - spoiler alert - the answer is zero.
So here we are, you trying to justify a very real threat against US citizens by creating an imaginary threat against ICE agents.
Doxxing is already a crime and agents are already being targeted despite their face coverings, so what good does it then do to let them continue violating rights without any repercussions?
But that doesn’t mean everyone is exempt from legal consequences.
That should include ICE agents who are violating US citizens' constitutional rights. There are several instances of ICE detaining and arresting citizens on suspicions of them being in the country illegally, sometimes for hours or days at a time.
But that begs the question, doesn't it, of how can ICE tell whether or not a person legally belongs in the US? It's not like people are walking around with their birth certificate stapled to their chests.
Proof means a lot to me. Hearsay on social media is not proof. However, I concede that there will certainly be mistakes made. People who shouldn't be arrested might be.
The reason people share their videos and stories through social media and news outlets is because the DHS is refusing to release data on how many US citizens and legal residents are being detained or taken into custody. It's not being transparent for searches conducted or arrests made without valid warrants.
But since you concede that mistakes will certainly be made, how do you reconcile that with the Trump administration setting arrest quotas for their agents? It's not like illegal aliens are going to walk right up to these detention centers to turn themselves in.
The reality is that these agents are on the hunt for anyone they think matches a description. There are several reports from across the country of Hispanic and Native American people being stopped, detained, and even handcuffed by ICE in order to prove their citizenship. How is that not akin to having a police state?
Somebody could get hurt if they react violently.
People are already dying in ICE detention centers after complyingHm, they are held responsible and accountable by their superiors
How do you know for certain that they are? Especially since we don't even know who these agents are behind their face coverings
To protect them and their families from being doxxed or retaliated against for doing their jobs.
How many police officers or federal agents or their families have been retaliated against as a result of doxxing? Feel free to look it up, but - spoiler alert - the answer is zero.
So here we are, you trying to justify a very real threat against US citizens by creating an imaginary threat against ICE agents.
Doxxing is already a crime and agents are already being targeted despite their face coverings, so what good does it then do to let them continue violating rights without any repercussions?
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@TinyViolins
Hm, what you don't seem to understand is that they need to sometimes round these people up to determine their citizenship. People lie, people forge documents. They are processed, and if found to be here legally, released. Sometimes they scoop up people who shouldn't be, that's unfortunate.
Are they required to do that? Do other LEO's do the same? Not really, so why would ICE be the exception? Because you don't like their mission?
No. It's just a personal preference. I prefer to live in a world of laws, rules, regulations where everyone is treated by the consequences of their behavior, not their victimhood status. You seemingly have tendencies to feel sympathy and compassion for people in this country illegally. I do not. Simple as that.
Just because something is a crime, doesn't mean it won't happen.
I'm not repeating myself again for the reasons why I support ICE having their identities protected while they do their jobs. I've made that point enough on this thread. If you don't agree, so be it.
But that begs the question, doesn't it, of how can ICE tell whether or not a person legally belongs in the US? It's not like people are walking around with their birth certificate stapled to their chests.
Hm, what you don't seem to understand is that they need to sometimes round these people up to determine their citizenship. People lie, people forge documents. They are processed, and if found to be here legally, released. Sometimes they scoop up people who shouldn't be, that's unfortunate.
The reason people share their videos and stories through social media and news outlets is because the DHS is refusing to release data on how many US citizens and legal residents are being detained or taken into custody. It's not being transparent for searches conducted or arrests made without valid warrants.
Are they required to do that? Do other LEO's do the same? Not really, so why would ICE be the exception? Because you don't like their mission?
But since you concede that mistakes will certainly be made, how do you reconcile that with the Trump administration setting arrest quotas for their agents? It's not like illegal aliens are going to walk right up to these detention centers to turn themselves in.
Quotas, expectations, and goals are things that all modern employees have to deal with. Again, why should ICE be the exception?People are already dying in ICE detention centers after complying
Is that right? Care to back that up with a specific example? How do you know for certain that they are? Especially since we don't even know who these agents are behind their face coverings
Because they are a law enforcement agency under the federal government and are beholden to the rules, regulations and laws that all LEO's are. How many police officers or federal agents or their families have been retaliated against as a result of doxxing? Feel free to look it up, but - spoiler alert - the answer is zero.
Bullshit. They just arrested 10 Antifa individuals for attacking an ICE detention center in Texas. One of the first responding agents was shot in the neck. So here we are, you trying to justify a very real threat against US citizens by creating an imaginary threat against ICE agents.
No. It's just a personal preference. I prefer to live in a world of laws, rules, regulations where everyone is treated by the consequences of their behavior, not their victimhood status. You seemingly have tendencies to feel sympathy and compassion for people in this country illegally. I do not. Simple as that.
Doxxing is already a crime and agents are already being targeted despite their face coverings, so what good does it then do to let them continue violating rights without any repercussions?
Just because something is a crime, doesn't mean it won't happen.
I'm not repeating myself again for the reasons why I support ICE having their identities protected while they do their jobs. I've made that point enough on this thread. If you don't agree, so be it.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SumKindaMunster
That's beyond unfortunate, that's a violation of their constitutional rights. No unreasonable searches and seizures is explicitly clear. That means either a warrant or evidence of a crime having been committed. Having brown skin is not a crime. Associating in Hispanic areas or with undocumented immigrants is not a crime. It's protected by the freedom of assembly.
People also lose documents. I've had my birth certificate stolen. My girlfriend lost her SSN. Not having those things available can make a world of difference in people's lives. Most people have families and jobs and can't afford to wait all day in an ICE detention center for their chance to speak with legal counsel.
Yeah, you can often ask police officers for their name and badge number and the vast majority willingly comply. You can request bodycam footage and arrest records from your local PD. As it stands now, ICE answers only to their superiors, they don't use body cameras, and it can take a lawyer hours to figure out whether or not they even have a specific person in custody, let alone friends or family members navigating that on their own.
Police don't have quotas. US Marshals don't have quotas. FBI and CIA don't have quotas. Neither does ATF or Border Patrol. Quit being obtuse. ICE is the exception here.
I can give you 12 from just this year, but if you can't even be bothered to look it up yourself, me looking it up for you isn't going to change your apathy towards them.
That's hysterically naive. Weren't you the same guy saying how government officials were using federal agencies to illegally launder money? Did any criminal convictions or allegations ever manifest from that, by the way? Or perhaps you think government corruption only exists when it's a (D) in the White House?
Like I said before, how do you know for certain? Can you back your claim of accountability up with a specific example? Cause I sure as hell can't find one from this administration.
Newsflash: not a single one of those agents were doxxed. But maybe you believe that somehow those bandanas covering their faces makes them bulletproof.
Yet you're voicing support for an agency that has repeatedly violated these rules in pursuit of an agenda, regardless of how many innocent people get swept up in their crusade. You voted for a convicted felon who wasted no time pardoning off violent insurrectionists and financial fraudsters.
For the record, I feel sympathy and compassion for people irrespective of what paperwork they have. Their dignity doesn't stop at some invisible line. And I feel more strongly for those who are merely trying to live their lives and to work hard to provide for their families than I do for a bunch of authoritarian thugs trying to intimidate and harass people based on their skin color.
Hm, what you don't seem to understand is that they need to sometimes round these people up to determine their citizenship. People lie, people forge documents. They are processed, and if found to be here legally, released. Sometimes they scoop up people who shouldn't be, that's unfortunate.
That's beyond unfortunate, that's a violation of their constitutional rights. No unreasonable searches and seizures is explicitly clear. That means either a warrant or evidence of a crime having been committed. Having brown skin is not a crime. Associating in Hispanic areas or with undocumented immigrants is not a crime. It's protected by the freedom of assembly.
People also lose documents. I've had my birth certificate stolen. My girlfriend lost her SSN. Not having those things available can make a world of difference in people's lives. Most people have families and jobs and can't afford to wait all day in an ICE detention center for their chance to speak with legal counsel.
Do other LEO's do the same?
Yeah, you can often ask police officers for their name and badge number and the vast majority willingly comply. You can request bodycam footage and arrest records from your local PD. As it stands now, ICE answers only to their superiors, they don't use body cameras, and it can take a lawyer hours to figure out whether or not they even have a specific person in custody, let alone friends or family members navigating that on their own.
Quotas, expectations, and goals are things that all modern employees have to deal with. Again, why should ICE be the exception?
Police don't have quotas. US Marshals don't have quotas. FBI and CIA don't have quotas. Neither does ATF or Border Patrol. Quit being obtuse. ICE is the exception here.
People are already dying in ICE detention centers after complying
Is that right? Care to back that up with a specific example?
Is that right? Care to back that up with a specific example?
I can give you 12 from just this year, but if you can't even be bothered to look it up yourself, me looking it up for you isn't going to change your apathy towards them.
Because they are a law enforcement agency under the federal government and are beholden to the rules, regulations and laws that all LEO's are
That's hysterically naive. Weren't you the same guy saying how government officials were using federal agencies to illegally launder money? Did any criminal convictions or allegations ever manifest from that, by the way? Or perhaps you think government corruption only exists when it's a (D) in the White House?
Like I said before, how do you know for certain? Can you back your claim of accountability up with a specific example? Cause I sure as hell can't find one from this administration.
Bullshit. They just arrested 10 Antifa individuals for attacking an ICE detention center in Texas. One of the first responding agents was shot in the neck.
Newsflash: not a single one of those agents were doxxed. But maybe you believe that somehow those bandanas covering their faces makes them bulletproof.
I prefer to live in a world of laws, rules, regulations where everyone is treated by the consequences of their behavior, not their victimhood status. You seemingly have tendencies to feel sympathy and compassion for people in this country illegally. I do not. Simple as that.
Yet you're voicing support for an agency that has repeatedly violated these rules in pursuit of an agenda, regardless of how many innocent people get swept up in their crusade. You voted for a convicted felon who wasted no time pardoning off violent insurrectionists and financial fraudsters.
For the record, I feel sympathy and compassion for people irrespective of what paperwork they have. Their dignity doesn't stop at some invisible line. And I feel more strongly for those who are merely trying to live their lives and to work hard to provide for their families than I do for a bunch of authoritarian thugs trying to intimidate and harass people based on their skin color.
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@TinyViolins Per our other discussion, I am moving on. You are repeating a lot of your previous points and I don't feel the need to repeat mine.
Thank you for your time, and my apologies if you were personally offended by some of my statements.
Thank you for your time, and my apologies if you were personally offended by some of my statements.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SumKindaMunster Yeah, you said that last argument too. See ya in the next one, I guess
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@TinyViolins Yep! I look forward to you not acknowledging any of this and responding as you always do.
Have a great weekend!
Have a great weekend!