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The Contradictions of Abraham Lincoln.

The Contradictions of Abraham Lincoln.
The following show us almost two different Lincolns. It has always been my stance that Lincoln was no abolitionist. He had no issue with slavery. His aim was to save the Union at any cost. If that meant ending slavery, then so be it.
After all, he did sign the Emancipation Proclamation. Perhaps "Honest Abe" had a 'come to Jesus' moment.

Perhaps it simply shows how one can evolve....or does a cynic say, it shows how a politician changes his stance on a whim?

Here we go:

August 24, 1855: Letter to Joshua F. Speed.

(The American or "Know Nothing Party" was an anti-immigrant political party of the 1850's.)

"I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we begin by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty-to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." [sic].


But then, three years later:

In 1858, Lincoln challenged U.S. Senator and leading Democrat Stephen A. Douglas for his seat. The two candidates engaged in a series of seven debates across Illinois. In the sixth debate, held in Quincy on October 13, 1858, Lincoln responded to Douglas’s assertion that Lincoln saw no “distinction between races.” Printed in the Chicago Daily Press and Tribune on October 15, 1858, Lincoln replied:

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermingling with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Source: The Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum

So the ball in now in your court. I look forward to reading your comments.
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When people say "these were different times" I’m never sure if they’re trying to dismiss the egregiousness of what was done or said. If so, it could be used to dismiss how people were treated during other atrocities like the Holocaust, yet it never is.

I’ve really never seen Lincoln as particularly a hero to my "kind", even though the teachers of my childhood said as much.
He even said that if he could keep the country united without ending slavery, he’d do that.

Besides, even if Lincoln did personally think slavery was wrong, but that black people were inferior to whites, that’s hardly an outdated attitude.

I’d venture to say there are plenty of folks, even in the White House, who believe that today. 😔
degraded · 22-25, F
@bijouxbroussard Man is guided by law. He apparently has to be guided by law. We are now overflowing with laws, treaties, and what they call “human rights.” Would a Holocaust in Germany and occupied territories happen now? Ha. They will not even let AfD have their share of the vote.

You should see Lincoln as a hero. He chose black over white. Do you know how many white men were killed in the Civil War?
@degraded But he didn’t. There was nothing personal in it. The country claimed to be "the land of the free", so chattel slavery shouldn’t have been possible in the first place. Lincoln corrected an error in what this nation claimed to stand for.

Do you know how many white men fought for the right to keep black people enslaved ? Moreover, did you know that those men are still being honored in much of the South ?

And black men had to fight for the right to even serve, but plenty of them fought and died, too. 😳
degraded · 22-25, F
@bijouxbroussard Who cares about what is personal to Abe? It is personal for hundreds of thousands of men to die in war. Why did Southern states secede? They knew Lincoln was going to abolish slavery in their states. Why did Lincoln not back down? He chose abolition. He chose war. For what? To later be called a racist?

I wouldn't have bothered.
@degraded I totally believe you, in that you wouldn’t have bothered.

And Lincoln certainly wouldn’t have cared what people think now, his goal was to reunite the country and at the cost of his own life, he was successful. But by his own words, he wasn’t an abolitionist; if maintaining slavery where it existed, or freeing some, leaving others enslaved, he was willing to do that.

It wouldn’t have been necessary if not for the fact that a percentage of the white population were willing to leave the union and subsequently to go to war, fight and die to keep black people enslaved. That’s the reality of it.

That was why they chose to secede, as you correctly pointed out.
And Lincoln was pragmatic, as I believe you also said. But an abolitionist, not so much.

Now John Brown was an abolitionist and someone whom I consider a hero.
degraded · 22-25, F
@bijouxbroussard Lincoln sought to change the states through law. What did John Brown do?
@degraded He sought to free slaves. Unequivocally.
degraded · 22-25, F
@bijouxbroussard I think your problem is that Abe was not fanatical enough. Poor man. I take pragmatism over fanaticism. Although, he wasn't pragmatic in the end...was he? He could have done more to soothe the unease of Southern states. He didn't. They saw what was coming, and they lost everything. Lincoln pushed ahead with vigor. Why do you think they are poor now?

I am not going to say it was solely due to one man. What I will say is that it is petty to strip away the abolitionist label from Lincoln. It is driven by ideology, by a closed mind.
JSul3 · 70-79
@degraded We have Lincolns own words to go by.

Perhaps were he still alive, we could ask him to clarify.
@degraded I really don’t expect you to understand this, because it’s not a part of your heritage. The abolitionist movement was something very specific.

Abraham Lincoln, by his own words and beliefs, was not an abolitionist. Do you think you know better than the man himself ? And the United States has had a history of behaving fanatically regarding the concept of personal freedom—for white men, traditionally.

The actual abolitionists, those who helped slaves escape, hid them via the Underground Railroad, who risked their own freedom and lives, were fanatics for the freedom of others. And they were heroes. Their ideology was simply the idea of all human beings deserving to be free.

It’s the closed minds that can’t comprehend or relate to that.
degraded · 22-25, F
@bijouxbroussard Do you think a radical abolitionist would have made it to power? There are different shades. Different shades of everything. Lincoln was an abolitionist. But, not your kind of abolitionist. The kind who was of no use to you.
DarthInvader · 36-40, M
@bijouxbroussard Oh my goodness stop with all this. What if Jillian Michaels is secretly an SW member? You want her to feel bad?
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@DarthInvader I feel like I’ve been arguing with her. 🙄
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JSul3 · 70-79
@DarthInvader WTH does Jillian Michaels has to do with this discussion?
DarthInvader · 36-40, M
@JSul3 Look up her comments on slavery
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@DarthInvader Seriously, she needs to lose custody.
It’s weird how many people don’t seem to know the difference between a servant and a slave.
JSul3 · 70-79
@DarthInvader
Michaels' Defense
Misconstrued Comments:
Michaels stated her comments were misconstrued and that she never defended slavery.
Focus on World History:
She clarified that she was discussing slavery across world history, not just in the United States.
Broader Context:
She argued that the issue was about accurately representing history and avoiding the oversimplification of assigning blame to a single race for a complex historical phenomenon.
Underlying Issues
Economic and Political Systems:
Some commentators highlighted that the US economy and political systems were built significantly on slavery and that the nation would be unrecognizable without it.
National Endeavor:
The institution of slavery in the US is described by some as a "national endeavor" that underpinned the nation's entire economy.
JSul3 · 70-79
@bijouxbroussard See my comment @DarthInvader.
@JSul3 Her main issue is her defensiveness as a white person. Nobody’s blaming her for slavery, but she feels like she has to defend it, which indicates she is looking at the United States institution. And she’s ignoring what came afterwards.
DarthInvader · 36-40, M
@JSul3 I feel like you typed some stuff in grok or ChatGPT and this is what it returned.
JSul3 · 70-79
@DarthInvader The info is there.
Do a web search on your own.
DarthInvader · 36-40, M
@JSul3 I don't need to do a search of anything. Mate, it is you that had to ask what Jillian has to do with this discussion.
@JSul3 I listened to her when she was interviewed. She’s a slavery apologist, using the same racist talking points folks like Trump use. 🥺