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Government relief of US college debt...



Have we reached the point predicted two hundred years ago where Congress has figured out how to bribe the American people with the people's own money??

We raise taxes (the people's money) and use it to subsidize everything from cheap oil and computer chips to bankrupt banks and auto makers. We use it to provide economic stimulus payments in down times and now to pay off student debts.

I know I've posted in the past about my support for access to abortion services and my support of marriage equality and transgender acceptance so many of you might consider me to be quite liberal across the board. And it's true that I support many liberal/progressive issues. But when it comes to economics and individual responsibility I tend to the fairly extreme right side of politics.

I don't support government subsidies. Period.

I think oil companies should pay fair market value for the land they drill on.
I think coal companies should pay the full life cycle cost of their ore.
I think solar electric should also should pay its full life cycle costs.
Same with wind.

If your car company can't make a profit, then maybe the guy who buys your factory from the bankruptcy court can.

If your bank is too big to fail, then take better care of it. Don't come to me with your hands out when you screw up.

And, if you borrow money to buy a home or get an education, then have a plan to pay it back.

It's called capitalism and, until it is replaced by something else, it is the system we have in place.





Let me tell you a story about one of my cousins. He's a couple years younger than I am. He's really a second cousin or maybe third, I'm not quite sure how all that works. In any case, he came to me when I was in my second year at university because he wanted to go to college and it wasn't looking possible for him. So we talked about it.

He wanted to go for the traditional four year bachelor's degree. He was really into theater arts and stage lighting and audio production. I asked him a simply question ... In that world would a bachelor's degree impact his income? In other words, how many years would it take for the increased income take to pay off the cost of a four year degree? A simple "return on investment" conversation (and no, I wasn't a business major).

He looked into it. What he found was stunning to us both. In that world, people with a degree and people without a degree made essentially the same money. It was crazy. He decided to take the savings he was able to blow on a first semester and instead bought some equipment. If I remember right, it was a trailer to cart stuff around and a bunch of lights and cables and speakers and some kind of board to control audio ... and he started going around to various venues and bars and clubs and offered to run events for them. He was 18.

My grandfather provided a lot of really good business advice and today he is 26 and has three crews running around Boston doing corporate events during the day and evening events at bars and clubs. No degree, no debt.

My point in bringing him up in this conversation about education debt is because he did assess (at my urging) what the debt of a four year degree would end up costing him and whether the benefit of that degree would support that debt. In his field it would not.





For other's the calculation may be different, but it is a basic calculation that anyone taking on any kind of debt (education, real estate, car, etc) should and could run. This is not advanced calculus.

So when I hear that people are strapped with huge debt and can't make their payments, I do feel bad. But I think it is fair to ask how they got into that situation and whether it is due to matters beyond their control or not.
- Took on loans and then got sick and couldn't finish school? Okay, legit issue and maybe some relief should be offered.
- Took on loans without thinking of payback and now don't make enough to support the debt? We have a process to handle this already in place. It is called bankruptcy. It comes with consequences, but it works and is fair to borrower and lender.





Am I too harsh here? Are we responsible for our decisions?





Edit: I became aware through the comments below and some personal research that student debt cannot be eliminated through bankruptcy. This is crazy. The concept of bankruptcy is critical to the smooth functioning of a capitalist economy. If someone truly took on too much debt through poor planning, then bankruptcy should be available to them and the federal guaranty would kick in and make the lender whole.
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room101 · 51-55, M
"I don't support government subsidies. Period."

So, what are your thoughts on the biggest government subsidy of all, the military?

"It's called capitalism and, until it is replaced by something else, it is the system we have in place."

So, how does this system, that you have in place, impact on the cost of education in America?

Here's a thought, maybe if the cost of education in America wasn't so high, people could gain an education without falling into prohibitive debt. IDK, could be something worth pondering, right?

🤷‍♂️
Scribbles · 36-40, F
@room101 I wish I could word my comment more calmly and nicely like you. I'm very opinionated on this topic.

My apologies, Sara if I come across as harsh. I'm very passionate on making the world livable for people-even ones you'd think are irresponsible and need help to improve their lives to where they want to be.
room101 · 51-55, M
@Scribbles WOW! I'm wording my comments nicely? That's got to be a first. Maybe I should copy and paste this somewhere😉

Thank you Scribbles. I don't mean to ridicule your opinion of my comment. I've just never experienced anybody viewing how I express my opinions as being worded nicely.🤗🤣
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@room101 In order for military outlays to be considered a subsidy, they must first have been a private sector expense. This is not the case. I'll be the first to agree that we spend too much on our military, especially the Chair Force 🤣, but it is not a subsidy. Different topic for a different time.

Oh you think the cost of education in America is too high? And you reached this conclusion all on your own?? 🤣🤣🤣

Lol, sorry, the sarcasm just oozed out my pores after that comment. Yes, education is too expensive here. Different topic for a different time.
room101 · 51-55, M
@sarabee1995 Sorry Sara but neither of those are different topics. Student debt is directly related to cost of education.

If you don't like the word subsidy (in the context of military expenditure by any given government of any given country), what word would you prefer?

https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college

An average of $35.5k per year in the US. Factor in loan interest and that can come to a total of $500k.

https://thinkstudent.co.uk/how-much-does-university-cost/

“University costs are comprised of tuition fees and living costs. The former is capped at a maximum of £9,250 per year for students in the UK, and the latter is approximately £8,245 per year.”

In other words, an average total of approx. £17.6k per year. At current forex rates (ie approx. 1.18) that equates to approx. $20.8k per year. Furthermore, student loans (and their associated interest rates and repayment plans) are highly regulated by the UK government. So there is that.

https://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/student-finance/how-much-does-it-cost-study-germany

In Germany, undergraduate degrees are basically free for German students.

Do you want me to provide more info about how I came to my conclusion all on my own? Maybe you want to see what the cost of a university education is in the Scandinavian countries. Oh but they're socialist hellholes right?
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sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@room101 No, additional information is not needed. I am well aware that our higher education system is way over-priced for the value delivered and that most of the reason for that is the government dollars injected into the system. If private universities here had to survive based on the value they delivered ("return on investment") to undergraduate students, tuitions would plummet. But that is not reality. I get it.

Someday the world will come to its senses and appoint me sovereign over all and I will fix this madness. 😐
room101 · 51-55, M
@sarabee1995 I can only imagine what the cost of higher education would be in America if it wasn't for those government dollars😱

So you want to be a sovereign? But don't you routinely rail against monarchies, even when they are not relevant to the topic at hand?

[media=https://youtu.be/truHqdF50Hg]
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@room101 Oh, I didn't suggest that I be anointed Monarch of all land and sea. Rather I suggested that the world should come to its senses and appoint me sovereign.

Yes, yes, I am fully aware that the words mean the same thing. I'm just trying to babble my way out of an apparent contradiction. You do realize that all the proposed rules I espouse aren't intended to apply to me, right??
room101 · 51-55, M
@sarabee1995

"You do realize that all the proposed rules I espouse aren't intended to apply to me, right??"

Are you sure you're not a Republican🤣