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Government relief of US college debt...



Have we reached the point predicted two hundred years ago where Congress has figured out how to bribe the American people with the people's own money??

We raise taxes (the people's money) and use it to subsidize everything from cheap oil and computer chips to bankrupt banks and auto makers. We use it to provide economic stimulus payments in down times and now to pay off student debts.

I know I've posted in the past about my support for access to abortion services and my support of marriage equality and transgender acceptance so many of you might consider me to be quite liberal across the board. And it's true that I support many liberal/progressive issues. But when it comes to economics and individual responsibility I tend to the fairly extreme right side of politics.

I don't support government subsidies. Period.

I think oil companies should pay fair market value for the land they drill on.
I think coal companies should pay the full life cycle cost of their ore.
I think solar electric should also should pay its full life cycle costs.
Same with wind.

If your car company can't make a profit, then maybe the guy who buys your factory from the bankruptcy court can.

If your bank is too big to fail, then take better care of it. Don't come to me with your hands out when you screw up.

And, if you borrow money to buy a home or get an education, then have a plan to pay it back.

It's called capitalism and, until it is replaced by something else, it is the system we have in place.





Let me tell you a story about one of my cousins. He's a couple years younger than I am. He's really a second cousin or maybe third, I'm not quite sure how all that works. In any case, he came to me when I was in my second year at university because he wanted to go to college and it wasn't looking possible for him. So we talked about it.

He wanted to go for the traditional four year bachelor's degree. He was really into theater arts and stage lighting and audio production. I asked him a simply question ... In that world would a bachelor's degree impact his income? In other words, how many years would it take for the increased income take to pay off the cost of a four year degree? A simple "return on investment" conversation (and no, I wasn't a business major).

He looked into it. What he found was stunning to us both. In that world, people with a degree and people without a degree made essentially the same money. It was crazy. He decided to take the savings he was able to blow on a first semester and instead bought some equipment. If I remember right, it was a trailer to cart stuff around and a bunch of lights and cables and speakers and some kind of board to control audio ... and he started going around to various venues and bars and clubs and offered to run events for them. He was 18.

My grandfather provided a lot of really good business advice and today he is 26 and has three crews running around Boston doing corporate events during the day and evening events at bars and clubs. No degree, no debt.

My point in bringing him up in this conversation about education debt is because he did assess (at my urging) what the debt of a four year degree would end up costing him and whether the benefit of that degree would support that debt. In his field it would not.





For other's the calculation may be different, but it is a basic calculation that anyone taking on any kind of debt (education, real estate, car, etc) should and could run. This is not advanced calculus.

So when I hear that people are strapped with huge debt and can't make their payments, I do feel bad. But I think it is fair to ask how they got into that situation and whether it is due to matters beyond their control or not.
- Took on loans and then got sick and couldn't finish school? Okay, legit issue and maybe some relief should be offered.
- Took on loans without thinking of payback and now don't make enough to support the debt? We have a process to handle this already in place. It is called bankruptcy. It comes with consequences, but it works and is fair to borrower and lender.





Am I too harsh here? Are we responsible for our decisions?





Edit: I became aware through the comments below and some personal research that student debt cannot be eliminated through bankruptcy. This is crazy. The concept of bankruptcy is critical to the smooth functioning of a capitalist economy. If someone truly took on too much debt through poor planning, then bankruptcy should be available to them and the federal guaranty would kick in and make the lender whole.
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Amylynne · 31-35, F
15 bigggest payout from the us govt to corporations.. thisis just one year. and does not inlude tax debt forgivness.
source= https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org
1 Boeing $15,374,228,475
2 General Motors $8,236,574,470
3 Intel $6,004,762,638
4 Alcoa $5,805,613,652
5 Ford Motor $5,665,318,864
6 X-Energy LLC $5,297,302,367
7 Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company) $4,825,691,168
8 NRG Energy $3,921,376,589
9 Cheniere Energy $3,864,202,239
10 General Atomics $3,537,371,171
11 Amazon.com $3,522,918,174
12 Sempra Energy $3,363,986,694
13 Southern Company $3,207,505,461 1
14 NextEra Energy $2,858,193,244
15 Stellantis.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@Amylynne Yeah weird how student loan forgiveness gets all this backlash and nobody gives a shit about billions going to companies like Amazon that basically just print money.
Amylynne · 31-35, F
@CountScrofula every where all the time. PLEASE feel free to repost that data on any more moaning about student debt
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@Amylynne Yeah. OP doesn't believe in government subsidies and fails to recognize that is literally how the entire economy functions and somehow the moment taxpayer dollars go to someone who isn't a billionaire it's some kind of crime against humanity.
SW-User
@CountScrofula
somehow the moment taxpayer dollars go to someone who isn't a billionaire it's some kind of crime against humanity.


PREACH

Tell musk we'll stop asking for handouts when he does.
TexChik · F
@CountScrofula congressional term limits stops all of that
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@CountScrofula
OP doesn't believe in government subsidies and fails to recognize that is literally how the entire economy functions
Oh I'm very familiar with how our economy now works. I just object to it.

@Amylynne I believe what you are showing is payouts for products and services rendered. This is very different from bailouts. If Boeing builds a new F-18, they should be paid for it. But if they cannot run their business profitably, that is not my problem.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@sarabee1995

> Oh I'm very familiar with how our economy now works. I just object to it.

I mean, you clearly don't because you're conflating student debt with subsidies and when shown a list of subsidies you're now claiming it's a bill for services rendered.

No those are subsidies. For example Amazon will insist on ludicrously huge tax cuts in exchange for placing a warehouse in a city because they're "creating jobs". This is public information you can easily find.

And what is telling to me is that you made this post about student debt, not about subsidies paid to corporations.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@CountScrofula No. If these are subsidies and not payments for services rendered, then I would have the same objection.

And no, student loans are not subsidies. Forgiveness of student loans are subsidies.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@CountScrofula So the list above says these are payouts from the US Government. The example you gave (Amazon) was tax credit from a local government against real estate taxes. That would not appear on a list of US Government payouts. (The US Government does not assess real estate taxes.)

I'm just trying to clarify what this list is.
nudistsueaz · 61-69, F
@Amylynne Thanks to Joe, the Ho and their Boss, George Soros.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@sarabee1995 Yeah but that's a subsidy. It's not like the US government has bought 8 billion dollars worth of cars from General Motors. Subsidy is a catchall term for the government covering the costs of running a business which can vary from cash payouts to tax breaks to other forms of financial incentives.

My point is that no matter how you dream of the economy working, the entire system is set up this way. Yeah you can dream of a perfect free market based on some principle of fairness but that's just not how the world works.

Just like communism, capitalism is a good idea on paper but in reality it never really works out how people want.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@CountScrofula Okay, I just clicked the link that @Amylynne included in her post.

These amounts are not, in fact, payouts from the US Government as she states. These numbers, if they in fact come from the website she linked (I couldn't find these numbers there), are the sum total of tax relief from all sources, not just the US Government.
Amylynne · 31-35, F
@sarabee1995 so where the tax is taken matters?
|you can also wade thru the US government stats. they are tho, byzantine.
they are not payouts, they are remittances they do not have to pay.
the effect is the same, what Large corps get, dwarf anyt bebfit to indiviudal citizens

try this one
https://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/investing/t052-s001-10-companies-lower-tax-rates-than-most-americans/index.html
Amylynne · 31-35, F
@CountScrofula
if they cannot run their business profitably, that is not my problem.
but yet, your taxes pay for it
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@Amylynne neat trick huh