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Government relief of US college debt...

Have we reached the point predicted two hundred years ago where Congress has figured out how to bribe the American people with the people's own money??

We raise taxes (the people's money) and use it to subsidize everything from cheap oil and computer chips to bankrupt banks and auto makers. We use it to provide economic stimulus payments in down times and now to pay off student debts.

I know I've posted in the past about my support for access to abortion services and my support of marriage equality and transgender acceptance so many of you might consider me to be quite liberal across the board. And it's true that I support many liberal/progressive issues. But when it comes to economics and individual responsibility I tend to the fairly extreme right side of politics.

I don't support government subsidies. Period.

I think oil companies should pay fair market value for the land they drill on.
I think coal companies should pay the full life cycle cost of their ore.
I think solar electric should also should pay its full life cycle costs.
Same with wind.

If your car company can't make a profit, then maybe the guy who buys your factory from the bankruptcy court can.

If your bank is too big to fail, then take better care of it. Don't come to me with your hands out when you screw up.

And, if you borrow money to buy a home or get an education, then have a plan to pay it back.

It's called capitalism and, until it is replaced by something else, it is the system we have in place.

Let me tell you a story about one of my cousins. He's a couple years younger than I am. He's really a second cousin or maybe third, I'm not quite sure how all that works. In any case, he came to me when I was in my second year at university because he wanted to go to college and it wasn't looking possible for him. So we talked about it.

He wanted to go for the traditional four year bachelor's degree. He was really into theater arts and stage lighting and audio production. I asked him a simply question ... In that world would a bachelor's degree impact his income? In other words, how many years would it take for the increased income take to pay off the cost of a four year degree? A simple "return on investment" conversation (and no, I wasn't a business major).

He looked into it. What he found was stunning to us both. In that world, people with a degree and people without a degree made essentially the same money. It was crazy. He decided to take the savings he was able to blow on a first semester and instead bought some equipment. If I remember right, it was a trailer to cart stuff around and a bunch of lights and cables and speakers and some kind of board to control audio ... and he started going around to various venues and bars and clubs and offered to run events for them. He was 18.

My grandfather provided a lot of really good business advice and today he is 26 and has three crews running around Boston doing corporate events during the day and evening events at bars and clubs. No degree, no debt.

My point in bringing him up in this conversation about education debt is because he did assess (at my urging) what the debt of a four year degree would end up costing him and whether the benefit of that degree would support that debt. In his field it would not.

For other's the calculation may be different, but it is a basic calculation that anyone taking on any kind of debt (education, real estate, car, etc) should and could run. This is not advanced calculus.

So when I hear that people are strapped with huge debt and can't make their payments, I do feel bad. But I think it is fair to ask how they got into that situation and whether it is due to matters beyond their control or not.
- Took on loans and then got sick and couldn't finish school? Okay, legit issue and maybe some relief should be offered.
- Took on loans without thinking of payback and now don't make enough to support the debt? We have a process to handle this already in place. It is called bankruptcy. It comes with consequences, but it works and is fair to borrower and lender.

Am I too harsh here? Are we responsible for our decisions?

Edit: I became aware through the comments below and some personal research that student debt cannot be eliminated through bankruptcy. This is crazy. The concept of bankruptcy is critical to the smooth functioning of a capitalist economy. If someone truly took on too much debt through poor planning, then bankruptcy should be available to them and the federal guaranty would kick in and make the lender whole.

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CountScrofula · 41-45, M

You're treating this like you're borrowing money from a friend. That's not how student debt works.

This is effectively the government waiving tuition on institutions which for the most part are public institutions. The classes were taught, the college is open, the professors were paid, the money is covered. It's not like the government needs tha tmoney back to make rent next month.

The problem the government has is that the massive amount of student debt is a drain on the economy. It is preventing people from spending, buying, investing, and doing the things you want them to do. Instead, a slow trickle of revenue comes in to pay for shit that's already been paid for a decade ago.

This doesn't help -anyone-. Nobody's life is made better.

You can complain about bad individual decision-making, but we're talking about two full generations of people that were told by their parents they HAD to get a college degree or they'd flip burgers, and then find out the jobs are all bullshit and nobody can afford to make rent.

This is not a problem of individual decision making. It's a policy problem. It's about society and economy.

There is literally no benefit to this massive pile of unpaid student debt. It makes the US a worse country. And insisting it remain there so you can feel right about something is childish.

NerdyPotato ·

@CountScrofula

we're talking about two full generations of people that were told by their parents they HAD to get a college degree or they'd flip burgers

Exactly! Choices are rarely entirely free and often involve much more than a basic math equation.

nudistsueaz · 61-69, F

@CountScrofula How is the money covered? With money they take from the cirizens?

sarabee1995 · 26-30, F

@CountScrofula My federally guaranteed student loans for my private university tuition were from private banks. If they had been "forgiven" then the federal government would've had to write a check to that private bank for that amount.

I have no idea what your analogy of a loan from a friend was supposed to mean??

As for the government needing the money or not.... Look at our current rate of inflation. Every single time we print money out of nowhere we are driving up inflation by devaluing the currency.

What we need is fewer subsidies, not more.
No corporate welfare.
No economic stimulus payments.
No loan forgiveness.
No special interest payouts at all.

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@sarabee1995 I'm talking about federal student loans right, that's the subject right now. A private loan is another matter entirely.

Your ideal free market doesn't exist and never has. And again, the fact that your outrage is targeted at student loans and then you pay corporate welfare lipservice is extremely telling.

Like if we're talking points of principle here, here's mine.

I pay a lot of taxes. I want my shit for them. That shit means free colleges, healthcare, roads, and schools. Good social assistance so there aren't mentally ill homeless people dying on the streets and breaking into my garage. A good 30% of my paycheque vanishes, and it turns out that so much of that goes into giving corporations breaks who don't pay a dime in taxes and tuition keeps skyrocketing.

Corporate welfare is paying off already profitable companies because they're major political donors. Social welfare like free college is giving me the shit I'm paying for.

That's the difference. Treating student loan forgiveness like Amazon's tax breaks is insane because Amazon has money and power and you don't.

sarabee1995 · 26-30, F

@CountScrofula The federal government guarantees loans made by private banks. Those are the loans we are talking about, right?

My outrage today is focused on student loans only because that is what is in the news today. It's called current events. Outside of current events, I am far more upset at the state of federal largess in general, which is why those thoughts have leached into this unrelated piece.

pdqsailor1 · 61-69, M

@sarabee1995 What you need... are the correct level of taxes to make your society function... The illusion you tell yourself works .. does not work....it holds up poorly to every other economy that actually does work... only the people at the very top of the food chain benefit from this idiocy... Ask Bill Gates, Warren Buffet - they will tell you that what I say is true... THEY know they have to pay more in taxes to make society function... the ones who are deluded have not figured this out yet.....

Punches · 46-50, F

@CountScrofula

There is literally no benefit to this massive pile of unpaid student debt. It makes the US a worse country. And insisting it remain there so you can feel right about something is childish.

And the rest of that post, I wish I were there to shake your hand for that. It is absolutely the truth.

Budwick · 70-79, M

@CountScrofula

The problem the government has is that the massive amount of student debt is a drain on the economy.

Maybe the government shouldn't be in the business of making loans.

Budwick · 70-79, M

@nudistsueaz

How is the money covered? With money they take from the cirizens?

Yes, of course!
Government doesn't produce anything.
It's only income is from what it can bilk from citizens.

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@Budwick True, it'd be better if college had zero tuition and fees and anyone could go.

Budwick · 70-79, M

@CountScrofula

it'd be better if college had zero tuition and fees and anyone could go.

I have no problem with paying tuition. But, the increases colleges and universities have charged are out of bounds.

That of course dodges the repayment topic - you know, the topic of the post.
But as long as we're talking about what ever we want;

Free tuition is course impossible. Schools have payroll and mortgages to pay.
So, I assume that you are suggesting again that government wold pay - well, more accurately - taxpayers. And, as a taxpayer, I am opposed to paying for someones 'free' tuition as much as I am for paying their tuition debt.

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@Budwick I didn't use the words free very deliberately, I said zero tuition. Obviously it'd be funded out of tax revenue.

And the loans offered are, per the post you responded to, delaying a fee from a largely government-run service. The debt is stupid, the tuition is stupid. College should not charge for its services.

I am very happy to have my tax money go to this and a lot less happy to have my tax money go to giving Amazon and Tesla free money for already-profitable companies.

Budwick · 70-79, M

@CountScrofula

I am very happy to have my tax money go to this

Please pick up my tab as well.

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@CountScrofula

Obviously it'd be funded out of tax revenue.

Have you heard of the Audacity of Nope?

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@irishmolly72 I'm leafing through it and this is just basic neoliberal line dressed up with some academic pomposity from one of a million interchangeable right wing think tanks. I've read a million things like this. Blah blah unregulated free market exploit all the resources nanny state something something.

The essay about how Indigenous people should love capitalism is one of the dumbest things I've ever read though. This is so-bad-its-good territory. Holy shit.

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@CountScrofula

The essay about how Indigenous people should love capitalism is one of the dumbest things I've ever read though

Perhaps, but college educated people should love capitalism because they will be the greatest beneficiaries of it. That is beyond dispute. Then why are we subsidizing them?

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@irishmolly72 College educated people do love capitalism. Almost all Republican politicians have college degrees. You think they hate capitalism? Donald Trump, noted communist.

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@CountScrofula Then they will do just fine with no subsidies. TYVM

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@irishmolly72 They get plenty of subsidies. See how many loans they have forgiven, or the subsidies that go to the businesses that make them rich.

What gets me here is that I don't see right wingers trying to stop corporate subsidies or PPP loan forgiveness. Y'all say "I don't support that" but I don't see anyone really trying to stop it.

Meanwhile every ounce of political energy is focused on stopping the student loan stuff.

Weird how the rich get a free pass but the rest of us don't, huh?

Budwick · 70-79, M

@CountScrofula

See how many loans they have forgiven, or the subsidies that go to the businesses that make them rich.

No, I don't see how many loans to to corporations that have been forgiven.

NerdyPotato ·

@Budwick why am I not surprised? That part doesn't support your narrative, so of course you have not seen or remembered it. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened though.