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room101 · 51-55, M
@Kwek00 **SPOILER ALERT**
Obviously this is 100% subjective.
Pattison, in the Bruce Wayne guise, looked like a floppy haired emo. There was nothing of substance about "Gotham's richest son" in this portrayal.
The retro look of the vehicles was just not appealing to my particular aesthetic. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of vintage cars that I really, really like but, Bruce Wayne turning up in a 1960's Corvette Stingray? No! And the Batmobile? The Batmobile has always been so iconic. There was nothing iconic about this one.
The main thing that bugged me was that it was too damned slow. I get that an origin story needs time to flesh out characters etc but this gave no origins. Just odd bits of dialogue that made references to who the characters are and what happened to them in the past. Dialogue that was so insignificant in its delivery that one could have completely missed it.
Obviously this is 100% subjective.
Pattison, in the Bruce Wayne guise, looked like a floppy haired emo. There was nothing of substance about "Gotham's richest son" in this portrayal.
The retro look of the vehicles was just not appealing to my particular aesthetic. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of vintage cars that I really, really like but, Bruce Wayne turning up in a 1960's Corvette Stingray? No! And the Batmobile? The Batmobile has always been so iconic. There was nothing iconic about this one.
The main thing that bugged me was that it was too damned slow. I get that an origin story needs time to flesh out characters etc but this gave no origins. Just odd bits of dialogue that made references to who the characters are and what happened to them in the past. Dialogue that was so insignificant in its delivery that one could have completely missed it.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@room101 I'm aware that it's all subjective. I'm not going to go into a discussion. I just see it diffrently.
I do agree though with some of the criticism. I also said that some of the actors, don't really match my portrayal of the characters that I know from the commics. It wasn't only Pattison, like John Turturro as the Roman was a bit strange. Collin Farrel would also have been strange as the Penguin, but the make up really did wonders there. And casting Jeffrey Wright for what is supposed to be an Irish commisioner in the books was also a bit strange. BUT I do think everyone of them pulls it up. I actually believed Kravitz looked good for being Catwoman, and she was the least intresting character when it comes to her acting and what she was supposed to do... at leats for me. But all the other characters, even Pattison did what they had to do. If it was another actor that looked more like that original characters from the book, then I would have suspected the same level of acting from them.
I wasn't a fan of the Batmobile in this one. I'm more of an animated series batmobile guy. But this one was at least a lot more practical. But yeah, again... aesthetics you love them or you dont.
I like a slow burn, so this wasn't an issue for me. I really had that crime noir vibe when I was watching it. And I like Batman being a detective and trying to figure things out. I also think those make the best Batman stories in the commics too. I rather read a book like "The Long Halloween" or "Dark Victory" then "The Dark Knight Returns". In the first two Batman is really trying to solve a crime. In the other it's more action focussed because the crime needs no solving just punching. And Batman is still a detective in the first place... for me.
I think the dialogue was okay. They all had little breadcrumbs that lead to the conclussion. And... I honestly think that this is one of the best (if not THE BEST) Riddler stories out there. Because the Riddler is actually an incredibly difficult character to write a story for. Using him as the main villain, is a real challenge.
I do agree though with some of the criticism. I also said that some of the actors, don't really match my portrayal of the characters that I know from the commics. It wasn't only Pattison, like John Turturro as the Roman was a bit strange. Collin Farrel would also have been strange as the Penguin, but the make up really did wonders there. And casting Jeffrey Wright for what is supposed to be an Irish commisioner in the books was also a bit strange. BUT I do think everyone of them pulls it up. I actually believed Kravitz looked good for being Catwoman, and she was the least intresting character when it comes to her acting and what she was supposed to do... at leats for me. But all the other characters, even Pattison did what they had to do. If it was another actor that looked more like that original characters from the book, then I would have suspected the same level of acting from them.
I wasn't a fan of the Batmobile in this one. I'm more of an animated series batmobile guy. But this one was at least a lot more practical. But yeah, again... aesthetics you love them or you dont.
I like a slow burn, so this wasn't an issue for me. I really had that crime noir vibe when I was watching it. And I like Batman being a detective and trying to figure things out. I also think those make the best Batman stories in the commics too. I rather read a book like "The Long Halloween" or "Dark Victory" then "The Dark Knight Returns". In the first two Batman is really trying to solve a crime. In the other it's more action focussed because the crime needs no solving just punching. And Batman is still a detective in the first place... for me.
I think the dialogue was okay. They all had little breadcrumbs that lead to the conclussion. And... I honestly think that this is one of the best (if not THE BEST) Riddler stories out there. Because the Riddler is actually an incredibly difficult character to write a story for. Using him as the main villain, is a real challenge.
room101 · 51-55, M
@Kwek00 I welcome a discussion, especially with someone who is familiar with the whole Batman genre. I just want to avoid spoilers as much as possible.
I agree with you on The Riddler, he is great character and was portrayed well. Sadly, he hasn't had much of a showing in previous Batman movies so there is very little to compare.
I liked all of the performances, even Jeffrey Rush playing Gordon lol. And I agree, every actor pulled off their assigned roles well. Again, in terms of aesthetics, Pattison's Bruce Wayne "look" just didn't do it for me.
Going to skip past the detective bit because I think that would involve some spoilers. Suffice it to say that, I too was looking forward to the detective portrayal of the Batman character. Sadly, I didn't see much of it in this movie.
For me, The Batman genre falls into two iterations that I really enjoyed. The Michael Keaton version, which reminded me of the comics of my youth. And (head and shoulders above all), the Christian Bale version.
I agree with you on The Riddler, he is great character and was portrayed well. Sadly, he hasn't had much of a showing in previous Batman movies so there is very little to compare.
I liked all of the performances, even Jeffrey Rush playing Gordon lol. And I agree, every actor pulled off their assigned roles well. Again, in terms of aesthetics, Pattison's Bruce Wayne "look" just didn't do it for me.
Going to skip past the detective bit because I think that would involve some spoilers. Suffice it to say that, I too was looking forward to the detective portrayal of the Batman character. Sadly, I didn't see much of it in this movie.
For me, The Batman genre falls into two iterations that I really enjoyed. The Michael Keaton version, which reminded me of the comics of my youth. And (head and shoulders above all), the Christian Bale version.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@room101 How much Batman did you read? Because I kind have a bit of a collection going over here. And because I bought a lot of Batman in the last 2 months, things that I've been pushing on the long road to buy but where slowly selling out now, I've also been reading a lot of it since januari. When I compare, I compare more to the books then to the movies.
The first two movies that I've seen of Batman, were the Tim Burton ones. Even in my collecting, Batman kinda starts in the late 70s for me. When you have people like Denny O'Neil taking over in the editing department. When Batman actually got defined as a dark detective with a more moody crime noiresque background setting. When things got a bit more traumatizing then what you find in the silver and golden age of the series. And then, depending on who writes it, the stories and feels are all a bit diffrent. There are a lot of good runs, but also bad ones ofcourse. And this makes it that storytelling and the characters are always a little bit diffrent according to the new writer/interpretator of the franchise. So even in commics, there isn't a real standard, there is only this idea that is always the same: Bruce Waynes parents get killed and he vows that no one else should go through the same traumas he had, but he wants to do it without killing and having the law of the land have the final judgement. And because of this obsession, he has trained himself to be the best detective and tactician he can be. So that he's always prepared for any situation, and follows the evidence. He's pretty much a frustrated Sherlock Holmes in a dark world of superheroes and fancy gadgets. As long as these things are respected, you kinda stay in character and the fans will have an easier time gobbling it up.
I like both Tim Burton movies, but I don't think they can tip the mysterie that you find in the movie we were talking about. And the Christian Bale version delivered 2 of the better Batman movies. Because the 3th installment was a bit weak for me. But it was nice to have a better version of Bane for a change, because the only good one is the one in the TAS.
But again... I'm not going to "discuss", I'm okay listening to your opinion and giving you mine. But these are tastes and colours, they are all subjective and their is no rational way to determine who is right. But from everything I read, from the late 70s till the last couple of series (because I've not read the very last series yet, and Tom Kings' run will finish in Hardcover in june this year ... I don't have a lot of Trade Paper Backs) I think this new movie did a great job bringing the detective into the 21st century. I also liked that this was "year three", that means it was really early in Batmans' career and his gadgets, car, the cave ... it's not all up to snuff. Because most of the Batman stories published today, is like 15-20 years into his carreer, he has a lot more experience and gets a lot less puched and punished then in the movie I saw on thursday.
The first two movies that I've seen of Batman, were the Tim Burton ones. Even in my collecting, Batman kinda starts in the late 70s for me. When you have people like Denny O'Neil taking over in the editing department. When Batman actually got defined as a dark detective with a more moody crime noiresque background setting. When things got a bit more traumatizing then what you find in the silver and golden age of the series. And then, depending on who writes it, the stories and feels are all a bit diffrent. There are a lot of good runs, but also bad ones ofcourse. And this makes it that storytelling and the characters are always a little bit diffrent according to the new writer/interpretator of the franchise. So even in commics, there isn't a real standard, there is only this idea that is always the same: Bruce Waynes parents get killed and he vows that no one else should go through the same traumas he had, but he wants to do it without killing and having the law of the land have the final judgement. And because of this obsession, he has trained himself to be the best detective and tactician he can be. So that he's always prepared for any situation, and follows the evidence. He's pretty much a frustrated Sherlock Holmes in a dark world of superheroes and fancy gadgets. As long as these things are respected, you kinda stay in character and the fans will have an easier time gobbling it up.
I like both Tim Burton movies, but I don't think they can tip the mysterie that you find in the movie we were talking about. And the Christian Bale version delivered 2 of the better Batman movies. Because the 3th installment was a bit weak for me. But it was nice to have a better version of Bane for a change, because the only good one is the one in the TAS.
But again... I'm not going to "discuss", I'm okay listening to your opinion and giving you mine. But these are tastes and colours, they are all subjective and their is no rational way to determine who is right. But from everything I read, from the late 70s till the last couple of series (because I've not read the very last series yet, and Tom Kings' run will finish in Hardcover in june this year ... I don't have a lot of Trade Paper Backs) I think this new movie did a great job bringing the detective into the 21st century. I also liked that this was "year three", that means it was really early in Batmans' career and his gadgets, car, the cave ... it's not all up to snuff. Because most of the Batman stories published today, is like 15-20 years into his carreer, he has a lot more experience and gets a lot less puched and punished then in the movie I saw on thursday.
room101 · 51-55, M
@Kwek00 A bit of personal background. We migrated to the UK, from Cyprus, when I was five years old. By the age of seven, I was struggling to read what, to me, was a foreign language. We lived in a large Edwardian house packed to the gills with other immigrants like ourselves. On one of the floors were three young guys that I looked up to. They were cool and trendy and, joy of joys, they owned a TV.
One of these guys introduced me to comics. I didn't realise it at the time but that was his way of helping me to read. He had a massive collection of mostly DC comics. I loved Batman, Superboy (Superman as well but mostly Superboy), Daredevil and Thor. I think that I liked Thor because he reminded me of Greek mythology. Even at that young age Wonder Woman bugged me because the comics were fundamentally wrong about the origin of the Amazons and of Ares. My young self quickly railed against the idea that Ares was a badie. He was an Olympian god! It was he who created the Amazons to help humanity fight evil.
Anyway, this guy's collection went back to the 60's so I was exposed to early Batman all the way through to the late 70's.
By the time I hit my teens, I was developing my music tastes which centred around black music. They still do. Coincidentally, I also discovered The X-Men at the same time. The racism allegory inherent in The X-Men comics hit me like a ton of bricks.
Probably because there were so many spin-offs within The X-Men franchise, I read less and less of Batman and of DC comics in general. Having said that, I continued to collect some of the graphic novels and really enjoyed the Dark Knight persona in the later comics.
By the time I reached my late twenties, I had amassed quite a collection. A collection that I couldn't maintain or indeed keep. I sold some of it but gave the bulk to a younger cousin. He is now a married man in his thirties with two young children. He's still got those comics, and the ones that he added to the collection. Something that his wife is constantly pissed off about😂😂😂
One of these guys introduced me to comics. I didn't realise it at the time but that was his way of helping me to read. He had a massive collection of mostly DC comics. I loved Batman, Superboy (Superman as well but mostly Superboy), Daredevil and Thor. I think that I liked Thor because he reminded me of Greek mythology. Even at that young age Wonder Woman bugged me because the comics were fundamentally wrong about the origin of the Amazons and of Ares. My young self quickly railed against the idea that Ares was a badie. He was an Olympian god! It was he who created the Amazons to help humanity fight evil.
Anyway, this guy's collection went back to the 60's so I was exposed to early Batman all the way through to the late 70's.
By the time I hit my teens, I was developing my music tastes which centred around black music. They still do. Coincidentally, I also discovered The X-Men at the same time. The racism allegory inherent in The X-Men comics hit me like a ton of bricks.
Probably because there were so many spin-offs within The X-Men franchise, I read less and less of Batman and of DC comics in general. Having said that, I continued to collect some of the graphic novels and really enjoyed the Dark Knight persona in the later comics.
By the time I reached my late twenties, I had amassed quite a collection. A collection that I couldn't maintain or indeed keep. I sold some of it but gave the bulk to a younger cousin. He is now a married man in his thirties with two young children. He's still got those comics, and the ones that he added to the collection. Something that his wife is constantly pissed off about😂😂😂
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@room101 I grew up with Belgo-Franco kids commics. And when I got older, friends introduced me to to more young-adult and mature stuff. But I never really got into the american stuff. I was exposed to American commics by animated series. I watched a lot of animation. And then we are talking:
- Batman TAS
- Justice League TAS
- Spiderman TAS
- X-men TAS
All 90s and early 2000s products.
... and before that HE-man and Transformers.
But again... didn't read the commics. And even though I like a movie and an animated series, I'm really not into the superhero genre that much. But I do have a weak spot for Batman and Hellblazer. But Hellblazer is difficult to collect, so I only do Batman. I do have the mid 80s - late 90s run of X-men (or at least, everything that is collected in omnibusses). But I would take Batman over X-men any day of the weak. And I'm kinda sad that I collected X-men and not Spiderman or Conan. Both characters that I would enjoy a lot more.
There is a lot social criticism in commics. People that complain that commics today are "woke" really haven't read the older stuff. Because, as you rightly pointed out, X-men has to do with racism (or at least xenophobic behavior to that what is diffrent) and don't forget that Superman is an immigrant. But a lot of these sharper tones are more prevalent in the late 70s and 80s. X-men however is constant, because the entire framework was build like that from the very begining.
I have a collection of European, Japanese and some American commics. The best American stuff that I have, doesn't really have the super hero stuff going on for it. But I do have a really weak spot for Batman, espescially everything from the bronze age till now. And Batman has some really good runs, I think, partially, because it's a fairly easy character and he has the best rogues gallery in superhero-commics imo. But some of his villains are too smart for the authors, and thus it becomes difficult to use them. One of those characters is the Riddler. Because the riddles need to be intresting and people don't have to get them right away. Everything needs to be cryptic but solvable. It's way easier to write a Joker story, because he's just a psychotic murderer. You just need to make sure that the plot can be perceived as a joke. While Riddler needs a lot more homework before you can work it out.
- Batman TAS
- Justice League TAS
- Spiderman TAS
- X-men TAS
All 90s and early 2000s products.
... and before that HE-man and Transformers.
But again... didn't read the commics. And even though I like a movie and an animated series, I'm really not into the superhero genre that much. But I do have a weak spot for Batman and Hellblazer. But Hellblazer is difficult to collect, so I only do Batman. I do have the mid 80s - late 90s run of X-men (or at least, everything that is collected in omnibusses). But I would take Batman over X-men any day of the weak. And I'm kinda sad that I collected X-men and not Spiderman or Conan. Both characters that I would enjoy a lot more.
There is a lot social criticism in commics. People that complain that commics today are "woke" really haven't read the older stuff. Because, as you rightly pointed out, X-men has to do with racism (or at least xenophobic behavior to that what is diffrent) and don't forget that Superman is an immigrant. But a lot of these sharper tones are more prevalent in the late 70s and 80s. X-men however is constant, because the entire framework was build like that from the very begining.
I have a collection of European, Japanese and some American commics. The best American stuff that I have, doesn't really have the super hero stuff going on for it. But I do have a really weak spot for Batman, espescially everything from the bronze age till now. And Batman has some really good runs, I think, partially, because it's a fairly easy character and he has the best rogues gallery in superhero-commics imo. But some of his villains are too smart for the authors, and thus it becomes difficult to use them. One of those characters is the Riddler. Because the riddles need to be intresting and people don't have to get them right away. Everything needs to be cryptic but solvable. It's way easier to write a Joker story, because he's just a psychotic murderer. You just need to make sure that the plot can be perceived as a joke. While Riddler needs a lot more homework before you can work it out.