Israel has no right to self defense as the occupying power
Was the words of the UN specialist Francesca Albanese.
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CheekyBadger · M
People use "occuypying" to mean different things - e.g. the "Palestinians" use it to refer to the actual existence of Israel as a nation state since they claim all that land in that area as theirs. Some use it to refer to military presence of Israeli soldiers in the "West Bank" which is an area to the west of the River Jordan (that forms border with Jordan) to the east of Jersulalem. I don't know in what context this person is using it but at the heart of this conflict is an irreconcilable difference of opinion - namely whether Israel should exist and jews be permitted to live in that part of the world. Obviously the Israelis say it should and the Palestinians (mostly) say it shouldn't.
The obvious compromise is the so called "two state solution" which shares the land between the two groups which is what has been attempted over the last couple of decades where political power has been given to the two Palestinian groups - West Bank (WB) and Gaza Strip (GS). The people in GS held elections and voted Hamas to govern them. Hamas is dedicated to the elimination of Israel and doesn't keep that secret. WB elected Fatah which is currently more moderate and recognises Isreal's right to exist although there are attempts by more hardliners to assisinate the leader of Fatah. I have probably over simplified this but essentially we currently have two differing governments of the Palestine lands.
At the heart of this is the competition between Jews and Muslims to claim domination of that part of the world. If you go back even just 150 years you would find that there was more of a spread of different groups in that area - Jews as well as Christians and other religious groups were present. Over time more radical Islamists have gained power together with mass migration and these communities were attacked with many deaths encouraging the communities to relocate. Even Lebanon just north of Isreal was a Christian majority country until the 1930s but migration of people from neighbouring lands for various reasons has changed the demographic resulting in over 60% muslim majority.
The idea that there were no Jews in Israel until the creation of Israel as a state is just wrong - Jews came from that area originally and whilst many had left due to being persecuted there were still many that had remained - especially in places like Jersulalem. Of course the population increased with inward migration from other parts of the world - especially after the second world war but this itself wasn't the driver to create Israel - that had already been an idea with some traction behind it in the late nineteenth century. Jews having to leave other parts of the middle east bought land and settled in places like Tel-Aviv.
It is also conveniently forgottten that after the British had conquered the region (by overthrowing the Ottoman empire [Turkey]) they attempted to solve the issue then by allocating a portion of Palestine for the Arabs - this is now called Jordan, they appointed a ruler who was of royal descent in that area and left them to it. ethnically the Palastinians are same as majority Jordanians - this concept of Palestianian didn't really exist - the people calling themselves Palestinian are Arabs who originate further south (arabia - the clue is in the name) and have spread out from there - if the argument is made that Jews mostly come from elsewhere, then same argument applies to the Arabs too.
Even today the land of Isreal isn't exclusively for Jews - about 20% of the population are Muslim Arabs who enjoy equal rights with their fellow citizens and elect representatives to sit in the parliament. The supreme court judge that ruled the prime minister had broken the law a few months back is Arab. This notion that Arabs live in an arpartheid regime in Isreal is demonstrably false. Isreael also has Christians living there and others. I do recall someone claiming the evidence for this was that some cars had different number plates - in that case they did because the car was owned by someone from the WB which has a different government and issues it's own number plates - that's not apartheid, that's just what happens when you have differing civil administrations.
The obvious compromise is the so called "two state solution" which shares the land between the two groups which is what has been attempted over the last couple of decades where political power has been given to the two Palestinian groups - West Bank (WB) and Gaza Strip (GS). The people in GS held elections and voted Hamas to govern them. Hamas is dedicated to the elimination of Israel and doesn't keep that secret. WB elected Fatah which is currently more moderate and recognises Isreal's right to exist although there are attempts by more hardliners to assisinate the leader of Fatah. I have probably over simplified this but essentially we currently have two differing governments of the Palestine lands.
At the heart of this is the competition between Jews and Muslims to claim domination of that part of the world. If you go back even just 150 years you would find that there was more of a spread of different groups in that area - Jews as well as Christians and other religious groups were present. Over time more radical Islamists have gained power together with mass migration and these communities were attacked with many deaths encouraging the communities to relocate. Even Lebanon just north of Isreal was a Christian majority country until the 1930s but migration of people from neighbouring lands for various reasons has changed the demographic resulting in over 60% muslim majority.
The idea that there were no Jews in Israel until the creation of Israel as a state is just wrong - Jews came from that area originally and whilst many had left due to being persecuted there were still many that had remained - especially in places like Jersulalem. Of course the population increased with inward migration from other parts of the world - especially after the second world war but this itself wasn't the driver to create Israel - that had already been an idea with some traction behind it in the late nineteenth century. Jews having to leave other parts of the middle east bought land and settled in places like Tel-Aviv.
It is also conveniently forgottten that after the British had conquered the region (by overthrowing the Ottoman empire [Turkey]) they attempted to solve the issue then by allocating a portion of Palestine for the Arabs - this is now called Jordan, they appointed a ruler who was of royal descent in that area and left them to it. ethnically the Palastinians are same as majority Jordanians - this concept of Palestianian didn't really exist - the people calling themselves Palestinian are Arabs who originate further south (arabia - the clue is in the name) and have spread out from there - if the argument is made that Jews mostly come from elsewhere, then same argument applies to the Arabs too.
Even today the land of Isreal isn't exclusively for Jews - about 20% of the population are Muslim Arabs who enjoy equal rights with their fellow citizens and elect representatives to sit in the parliament. The supreme court judge that ruled the prime minister had broken the law a few months back is Arab. This notion that Arabs live in an arpartheid regime in Isreal is demonstrably false. Isreael also has Christians living there and others. I do recall someone claiming the evidence for this was that some cars had different number plates - in that case they did because the car was owned by someone from the WB which has a different government and issues it's own number plates - that's not apartheid, that's just what happens when you have differing civil administrations.
Moon3624 · 18-21, F
@CheekyBadger
You Thinking that Israel and Judaism are synonyms for each other is your problem that you have to deal with. There are hundreds of Jewish organizations and many Jews who are anti the state of Israel and view it as a settler colony .
And the whole land did belong to Palestinians. By Palestinians I mean
Jews Christians and Muslims who lived in that land before the state of Israel was founded and even before the British mandate before Ottoman Empire etc etc
However , the state of Israel was founded via mass migration of Jews who are not native to it
then massacres & mass expulsions of Palestinians and building settlements on their ashes and continued to do that since then.
The region did not belong to the British as much as it didn’t belong to Turks
And the British giving it to a third party
Is just another crime of the long list of crimes done by the colonial British empire ,
And Arabs this and Arabs that
Bro
Egypt dna wise is literally the decedents of ancient Egyptians 😂
The Levant people
Palestinians Syrians Lebanese etc are dna wise have big Canaanite dna and are indigenous to that land
Who said Theyv only annexed Palestine ? they literally also have annexed golan heights which internationally recognized as Syrian land except by Israel and USA
You Thinking that Israel and Judaism are synonyms for each other is your problem that you have to deal with. There are hundreds of Jewish organizations and many Jews who are anti the state of Israel and view it as a settler colony .
And the whole land did belong to Palestinians. By Palestinians I mean
Jews Christians and Muslims who lived in that land before the state of Israel was founded and even before the British mandate before Ottoman Empire etc etc
However , the state of Israel was founded via mass migration of Jews who are not native to it
then massacres & mass expulsions of Palestinians and building settlements on their ashes and continued to do that since then.
The region did not belong to the British as much as it didn’t belong to Turks
And the British giving it to a third party
Is just another crime of the long list of crimes done by the colonial British empire ,
And Arabs this and Arabs that
Bro
Egypt dna wise is literally the decedents of ancient Egyptians 😂
The Levant people
Palestinians Syrians Lebanese etc are dna wise have big Canaanite dna and are indigenous to that land
Who said Theyv only annexed Palestine ? they literally also have annexed golan heights which internationally recognized as Syrian land except by Israel and USA
Moon3624 · 18-21, F
CheekyBadger · M
@Moon3624 [quote]The region did not belong to the British as much as it didn’t belong to Turks
And the British giving it to a third party[/quote]
I don't object to this line of argument, however unless you deny that the Jewish people ever inhabited that land then surely you can't object to them returning to it?
[quote]“Not apartheid “
I don’t care your opinion. I quoted sources.[/quote]
I don't see your sources and I would also say that in my opinion Israel doesn't operate apartheid on it's citizens whether they are Arab or from elsewhere. Muslem Arabs make up 20% of the country and serve in the military (if they want - it isn't mandatory for them as it is recognised that whilst serving they may end up fighting people from the same background) and serve in parliament and judiciary at the highest levels. I can't see how anyone could describe this as apartheid which literally means to keep separate.
And the British giving it to a third party[/quote]
I don't object to this line of argument, however unless you deny that the Jewish people ever inhabited that land then surely you can't object to them returning to it?
[quote]“Not apartheid “
I don’t care your opinion. I quoted sources.[/quote]
I don't see your sources and I would also say that in my opinion Israel doesn't operate apartheid on it's citizens whether they are Arab or from elsewhere. Muslem Arabs make up 20% of the country and serve in the military (if they want - it isn't mandatory for them as it is recognised that whilst serving they may end up fighting people from the same background) and serve in parliament and judiciary at the highest levels. I can't see how anyone could describe this as apartheid which literally means to keep separate.
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Moon3624 · 18-21, F
@jshm2
If you think there is a single nation that cares about justice and humanity you have reached the wrong planet😂 almost each country does what is in its interest. they will side with human rights when it supports their agenda and be the first to break them when those same human rights are an obstacle to achieve their goals .
I’m not here criticizing hypocritical regimes cuz my ink will be exhumed before I even finish writing the title
But it pains me to see a brutal story of displacement, land theft through massacres , apartheid etc all happening for decades and until this day to an entire population
Which is the same population going through a live genocide at the moment
To be a complicated issue or you are anti semetic if you speak up against this colonial lunatic apartheid regime
And to see the same superpowers (USA uk francs etc ) who suffocate the rest of the world with their human rights to the point of invasions
Support this regime with billions as their people drown in students debts ,hospital bills , living expenses , and failing NhS.
It’s a very cynical world to the point
that the Oxygen atom is starting to question itself if maybe just maybe it should have never became diatomic
If you think there is a single nation that cares about justice and humanity you have reached the wrong planet😂 almost each country does what is in its interest. they will side with human rights when it supports their agenda and be the first to break them when those same human rights are an obstacle to achieve their goals .
I’m not here criticizing hypocritical regimes cuz my ink will be exhumed before I even finish writing the title
But it pains me to see a brutal story of displacement, land theft through massacres , apartheid etc all happening for decades and until this day to an entire population
Which is the same population going through a live genocide at the moment
To be a complicated issue or you are anti semetic if you speak up against this colonial lunatic apartheid regime
And to see the same superpowers (USA uk francs etc ) who suffocate the rest of the world with their human rights to the point of invasions
Support this regime with billions as their people drown in students debts ,hospital bills , living expenses , and failing NhS.
It’s a very cynical world to the point
that the Oxygen atom is starting to question itself if maybe just maybe it should have never became diatomic
BohemianBoo · M
I wouldn't go that far. Israel should defend itself from terrorist attacks. However, Israel does have an obligation to end the conditions that are causing terrorism. Ending the blockade would be a good start.
BohemianBoo · M
@Moon3624 I didn't say only Hamas needs to die. I said I support Palestinians fighting back against soldiers and settlers. I also want America to cut off all funding to Israel.
Moon3624 · 18-21, F
@BohemianBoo
When Palestinians fight against settlers and army they are still called terrorists and treated it as such
So when you say they have the right to fight them what’s the ultimate goal?
Fighting for what?
For liberation and getting their land back? Then we are on the same track.
Israel is the army and is the settlers
It is formed by the army and by settlers and protects and funds both and even does everything in its power to increase those settlers and empowers its army
So what you are saying is confusing me
You don’t want the Palestinians to end Israel when it is the source of everything
But you also think they should fight back
This is what should happen
1/ Zionism eradicated and the settler colony called Israel removed.
it’s a settler colony based on annexing land and expanding lol literally that’s the whole history
A “state” with magically changing boarders every some years 😂
They literally even have a Syrian territory (Galen heights )
2/ for war criminals including Benjamin to be executed and a lot of the IDF soldiers including ex soldiers investigated as many have been convicted with war crimes but were never investigated . There are also documentaries where ex soldiers would literally admit their crimes and these should be held accountable as well .
3/ Palestinians in and outside of Palestine get back their stolen homes
No matter where it is
4/ one land where Palestinians live dignity peace and freedom and for non Palestinians (regardless of religion) to live with equal rights within their land or leave to the country they have dual citizenship in or historical/ancestral attachment to.
When Palestinians fight against settlers and army they are still called terrorists and treated it as such
So when you say they have the right to fight them what’s the ultimate goal?
Fighting for what?
For liberation and getting their land back? Then we are on the same track.
Israel is the army and is the settlers
It is formed by the army and by settlers and protects and funds both and even does everything in its power to increase those settlers and empowers its army
So what you are saying is confusing me
You don’t want the Palestinians to end Israel when it is the source of everything
But you also think they should fight back
This is what should happen
1/ Zionism eradicated and the settler colony called Israel removed.
it’s a settler colony based on annexing land and expanding lol literally that’s the whole history
A “state” with magically changing boarders every some years 😂
They literally even have a Syrian territory (Galen heights )
2/ for war criminals including Benjamin to be executed and a lot of the IDF soldiers including ex soldiers investigated as many have been convicted with war crimes but were never investigated . There are also documentaries where ex soldiers would literally admit their crimes and these should be held accountable as well .
3/ Palestinians in and outside of Palestine get back their stolen homes
No matter where it is
4/ one land where Palestinians live dignity peace and freedom and for non Palestinians (regardless of religion) to live with equal rights within their land or leave to the country they have dual citizenship in or historical/ancestral attachment to.
BohemianBoo · M
@Moon3624 [quote]When Palestinians fight against settlers and army they are still called terrorists[/quote]
Well anyone who says that is either lying or uninformed about what's going on in Israel.
Well anyone who says that is either lying or uninformed about what's going on in Israel.
