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Israel/Hamas

My wife's family is Jewish, so I have heard plenty of opinions, discussions, rants about the Israel/Hamas war. I try to keep my mouth shut and on the sidelines, as mostly what I hear are loud supports for Israel and broad antisemitism claims directed towards anyone that shows any sympathy for Palestinians.

After listening to all this, I have formed the following opinions:
1) This feels similar to the USA attacking Iraq after 9/11. Much of the world asked the USA to use restraint, but the USA went ahead almost as a "retaliation". There are MANY similar incidents in WWII, such as bombing Tokyo, British carpet bombing German cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and many incidents in the Vietnan war, and many other incidents in history. Hard to condemn Israel for retaliating with full force against civilian targets when they are simply doing what most countries have done at one time or another.
2) Logic says Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians or hospitals. They may not be using enough care to avoid civilians, and there may be individual soldiers or officers wanting to enact revenge, but that happens in any war. Why does logic tell me Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians? Because they have nothing to gain from it. What they need is international support, and targeting civilians would not get them support. Hamas targets civilians because they do gain from it. They gain attention. Israeli retaliation only helps their propaganda message toward their own people.
3) Hamas exists because the Palestinians are an oppressed people. Again, many examples in history of this kind of thing. Israel tries to control Hamas by further oppressing and controlling resources. It is a valid strategy, but also a strategy that is almost guaranteed not to work. Ever notice in school how the strictest teachers complained of the most discipline problems? It's a chicken/egg thing. Not sure what Israel is supposed to do here, but blockading Gaza for a couple of decades certainly did not stop the terrorism. I'm not saying Israel civilians deserved to be attacked or that Israel caused this, but I think this was inevitable given the atmosphere. Israel is in the position of power here, and unless they rethink their strategy this will continue. You can't expect Palestinians to willfully give up whatever power they feel they have left.
Ynotisay · M
It's such a complex topic. Israel sees, and sells, any kind of of push back as being antisemitic. That's their protective veil. Which has allowed them to oppress Palestinians for years. But I think what's happening is the world is siding with oppressed people. NOT Hamas. And that's a big difference and one they're unwilling to acknowledge.
And I'm not so sure Israel's leaders cares about protecting civilians. I think they want that land, for Israeli settlers and a military presence, and this is the excuse they needed. It's been a drip drip drip for years.
Can't forget who's running the Israeli show right now. He's a right wing extremist and human life is different to those people. They'll just call it collateral damage. Especially as they seem to see all Palestinians as enemies. The solution has always been there. Two states. But peace doesn't seem to be a goal for Netanyahu. Without enemies then what he's selling doesn't sell. He's been shitting on the U.S. efforts, as well as those of allies, and he's backing himself in to a corner. The world is turning against Israel and he should be paying attention. The billions they receive for their military each year, mostly from the U.S., isn't a guarantee.
sascha · F
@trollslayer [quote]What does Israel have to lose here?[/quote]

Their security, the lives of Israelis, and potentially the loss of their country.

How is Gaza dependent on Israel? It is less dependent on Israel than Egypt, and other Arab and Muslim nations.

Israel withdrew in 2005, and Hamas had taken over by 2007.

Why would Gaza be its own country? Did you mean it should be incorporated into Palestine as part of a two-state solution? Can you tell me how this is possible with Hamas in power?

Why is Israel responsible for Gaza? If Gaza has not become a successful area, is this not the fault of Hamas and its leaders? They are very rich, and they run Gaza. One would assume that it is the government in Gaza we should blame the most, instead of the Jews neighboring it.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@sascha "How is Gaza dependent on Israel? It is less dependent on Israel than Egypt, and other Arab and Muslim nations."

Where do Gazans get their food and water and basic resources? Are they free to import whatever they wish into their country?
sascha · F
@trollslayer The PA authorizes their imports from Israel and the Palestinian territories, and Egypt has control over what is imported through the south.

Their water comes from inside Gaza, and a smaller amount is from Israel. There are many water sources in Gaza, although some are not very clean. Hamas is the government there, and they receive billions from Qatar and Iran. I think they are capable of ensuring that Gazans receive clean water, but are not very interested in this. People spend a long time peddling libels and conspiracy theories relating to Israel apparently benefiting from Hamas in some way, but they do not want to consider how Hamas benefits from the suffering of Gazans. Were it not for their plight, they would have no platform. A healthy and peaceful Gaza means no Hamas. This is why they refused to have the blockade lifted, after the multitude of times Israel offered to lift it.

Israel supplies around half of its electricity, with the other half coming from their power plant. Hamas is the only party in control of their power plant. If they are not supplying it with fuel as part of their defense strategy regarding exploiting and killing its civilian population, it is their fault. Meanwhile, Israel should still provide the rest of their electricity.

Do you think Israel is the only entity with the power to help those in Gaza? It seems that you do.
Richard65 · M
The Times of Israel actually reported in an article on 8th October that Netanyahu and his party actually encouraged the development of Hamas in order to undermine the movement to form a Palestinian state.

As for this current situation, Napoleon said never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. Netanyahu is playing right into the hands of Hamas.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@Richard65 Agreed. And I felt that the USA played right into the hands of Al Qaeda after 9/11. They wanted the USA to take the fight to them. They wanted the USA to waste money and expend resources. They wanted to destabilize the staus quo. As for your first comment - I don't doubt it. One way to get what you want is to make enemies that you can blame.
Richard65 · M
@trollslayer there's also the idea that Netanyahu might have helped develop Hamas for his own ends in much the same way the USA developed the Taliban in order to defeat the Russians. Both, it seems, created a Frankenstein's monster that turned on them.
Excellent post, especially your first two points.

I do have a few thoughts on your third point, though, vis a vis, why Hamas exists and the Chicken and the egg thing.

I really dont think it's so clear that Hamas exists just because Palestinians are an oppressed people. That was the PLO's thing, and while Hamas may now be its successor in some ways, its origins are different as are its motivations and goals.
Northwest · M
You're pretty much correct with your conclusions in #1 and #2. However

[b][i][u]Hamas exists because the Palestinians are an oppressed people. [/u][/i][/b]

Hamas exists because it wants to wrest control back over Jerusalem and the entire Holy Land. The plight of the Palestinian people is secondary to their primary objective, and they use it for recruiting puroposes.

You could say that if there is a 2-state solution, and Palestinians have the right to self-determination, not some Swiss-cheese of a country, with absolutely no authority, beyond issuing parking tickets, not even allowed to issue a building permit, or invite their cousins from Canada or the US for Eid, then Islamists would not be able to thrive.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

 
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