Pro choice women here, a question

@Torsten

[quote]Women can kill that unborn child, Your child and you get zero say but you are 100% responsible for it if the women deems it so.[/quote]

Yes, that's indeed the status quo. I think given the alternatives, it's the best choice. I don't think the biological father (or the State) should have a say in the decision to abort, nor should the father be able to opt out of financial responsibility by saying he would have wanted the mother to have an abortion. That would be a rather convenient way to avoid child support!

@Bumbles you remove the father from all responsibility of the child when the female is pregnant, you dont just suddenly get to put it all on him when its convenient. You shouldnt have it both ways.
I honestly dont get how you being a man or any man with the same opinion can actually think so little of yourselves in regards to this

@Torsten Not really about convenience, just when there is a baby. You’re encouraging abortions by letting men off the hook.

Not sure where the “think so little of yourself” comes from, but I raised two kids and supported my wife financially, and still married, so as a man, I feel quite good, thank you very much.🙂

It seems your definition of being a man is having a lot of kids out of wedlock and not supporting them. I know many neighborhoods where your kind would be quite welcome! 😝

@Bumbles no i dont encourage abortions at all because i am firmly against them

I say you care so little about yourself because you are a male who is so eager to have zero rights when it comes to your own children (if you have them or ever have them).
You feel good now but that feeling will quickly change if you're ever put in a position when you have no say if your child lives or dies or when that child is born, just how easy it is to have the mother take that child away from you and the law system is designed to make that much easier for her and so much harder for you to be a father.
You say you are for fathers handling their responsibility but the fact you also are non caring about mens rights when it comes to theri children just completely contradicts itself.

No my definition of being a man is simple a adult human male. Being a decent man though is to protect and provide for those you care for, hence why i am against abortions and think fathers need to handle their responsibilities.

@Torsten I have two kids, and raised and supported both, and have never caused any other pregnancy. I think men should financially support the children they sire, so if that means I don’t support “men’s rights,” well, so be it.

If you’re referring to joint custody, of course I support that. Never said I didn’t.

@Bumbles so how would you have felt if they were taken from you and you had to fight for years in a biased legal system that is designed to keep children with the mothers and away from the fathers?
You are after all advocating for men not having rights when it comes to their children after all

@Torsten You’re putting words in my mouth. I literally just wrote I supported joint custody.

@Bumbles no because you support men having no say when it comes abortion (the life of their child) and being made to pay child support.
Now with the child support i agree but if you are all for men having zero responsibility at a certain point to fatherhood, its hypocritical to say men need to also be financially responsible.
You can not just pick and choose when fathers are responsible for their child or not.
So with that in mind, its a safe bet that you also dont care about fathers losing any rights to custody of their children.
Am i wrong? and if so, how are you determining when men have rights and when they have none to their own children?

@Torsten I can’t argue with your conclusion I don’t “support men” because of my belief they should not be able to force a woman to give birth. If that’s what you think so be it.

If you don’t believe I support joint custody despite my saying I do, can’t change that either.

I don’t understand this part “you are all for men having zero responsibility at a certain point to fatherhood.”

@Bumbles [quote]i don't understand this part "you are all for men having zero responsibility at a certain point to fatherhood".[/quote]
because you said this, " I don't think the biological father (or the State) should have a say in the decision to abort".
that is you saying you agree with fathers having no rights when it comes to their child.
so with that in mind, how are you determining when fathers has rights and when they dont?

@Torsten Men should have the right to joint custody once their child is born. Joint means providing food, shelter, etc.

No such thing as pre-natal joint custody.

@Bumbles yes i know what joint custody is. Equal custody.
Its not really equal though now is it? certainly not if the father had no say if the mother would end that child life or not.
Okay so to you fathers only get rights once the baby is born? so a man only becomes a father when that child is born? I dont understand this logic.

To me, a man becomes responsible at conception. A father should provide in every way to his child/children and a father 100% should get say if his child is killed or not.
thats just my opinion. My sons life did not start when he was born and to think he could have just been aborted and i would have had zero say over that, is disgusting.

I think men need to find out more about the women they could potentially get pregnant and make sure what her thoughts are on this and if she thinks what you think and that being fathers have no say, men should get as far away from those women as possible.

@Torsten I don’t believe in state mandated birth, so I understand why my beliefs confuse you.

I certainly agree men should be more careful who they sleep with, though.

@Torsten I appreciate the civil dialogue as well. Thank you for that.

I have no quarrel with someone being against abortion. I would not have wanted to abort a third child with my wife despite, to be frank, the financial strain it would have caused.

I just cannot support the State forcing a woman to give birth against her will. I find that distopic. It’s a nightmare to me that a raped woman would need to endure birth at the threat of criminal charges against her for murder.

I express my view his way not to judge yours, or to try to convince you, but to express how I arrived at my conclusion. I have seen the fetus in utero. I have seen the horrific images, I do not pretend a fetus is a “clump of cells” in order to rationalize my opinion.

To me, the alternative is worse and is happening now.

I wish you well…