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LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
Lila15 · 22-25, F
@SumKindaMunster The main reason is that no abortion rights bill will pass the current House, so why bring it up just for performative purposes?
Also, the media has dropped this issue and moved on. No more stories about ten year old rape victims or women with stillbirths bleeding out. There are still states attempting to pass laws that could subject women who have miscarriages to police investigations, and other states are contemplating laws that would outlaw abortion with no exceptions. Keep in mind that the Republican power brokers would prefer for this issue to go away, as abortion restrictions are wildly unpopular, even in red states.
There has been more attention paid to the judge in Texas who is expected to revoke the FDA's approval of mifepristone, while there's been less attention paid to the judge who opined that abortion is protected by the 13th amendment's prohibition against involuntary servitude. You can be sure that pro-choice groups are working on the next legal challenge, but with the current Supreme Court, it's a waste of time.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/02/federal-judge-abortion-still-constitutional-dobbs-13th-amendment.html
Also, the media has dropped this issue and moved on. No more stories about ten year old rape victims or women with stillbirths bleeding out. There are still states attempting to pass laws that could subject women who have miscarriages to police investigations, and other states are contemplating laws that would outlaw abortion with no exceptions. Keep in mind that the Republican power brokers would prefer for this issue to go away, as abortion restrictions are wildly unpopular, even in red states.
There has been more attention paid to the judge in Texas who is expected to revoke the FDA's approval of mifepristone, while there's been less attention paid to the judge who opined that abortion is protected by the 13th amendment's prohibition against involuntary servitude. You can be sure that pro-choice groups are working on the next legal challenge, but with the current Supreme Court, it's a waste of time.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/02/federal-judge-abortion-still-constitutional-dobbs-13th-amendment.html
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@Lila15 Well hello, long time no talk...
While I don't disagree, aren't you sick of this crap? If they wanted to, they could work on this and come to a compromise. The do it when its important them. How many votes did McCarthy call for to get him elected Speaker of the House?
They sure did. That was very convenient and helpful for the Democrats in the midterms wasn't it? And now they dropped it like a hot potato when it was no longer needed.
Quite frankly, its both parties who want it to go away. They don't want to do the necessary work to come to a compromise on this, they just want to use it as a wedge issue for votes and money.
Yes those are the stories being fed to you to keep you angry and frustrated with this issue.
Yes the Supreme Court is a waste of time, as it is Congress who needs to draft the legislation to come up with a compromise to resolve this issue. I do agree with you that they won't, and I suspect we won't hear much from the current administration on this issue until its useful again to them.
The main reason is that no abortion rights bill will pass the current House, so why bring it up just for performative purposes?
While I don't disagree, aren't you sick of this crap? If they wanted to, they could work on this and come to a compromise. The do it when its important them. How many votes did McCarthy call for to get him elected Speaker of the House?
Also, the media has dropped this issue and moved on
They sure did. That was very convenient and helpful for the Democrats in the midterms wasn't it? And now they dropped it like a hot potato when it was no longer needed.
Keep in mind that the Republican power brokers would prefer for this issue to go away, as abortion restrictions are wildly unpopular, even in red states.
Quite frankly, its both parties who want it to go away. They don't want to do the necessary work to come to a compromise on this, they just want to use it as a wedge issue for votes and money.
There has been more attention paid to the judge in Texas who is expected to revoke the FDA's approval of mifepristone, while there's been less attention paid to the judge who opined that abortion is protected by the 13th amendment's prohibition against involuntary servitude. You can be sure that pro-choice groups are working on the next legal challenge, but with the current Supreme Court, it's a waste of time.
Yes those are the stories being fed to you to keep you angry and frustrated with this issue.
Yes the Supreme Court is a waste of time, as it is Congress who needs to draft the legislation to come up with a compromise to resolve this issue. I do agree with you that they won't, and I suspect we won't hear much from the current administration on this issue until its useful again to them.
Lila15 · 22-25, F
@SumKindaMunster There is no compromise on abortion. Too many Republicans want to outlaw it almost completely. We already had a compromise with Roe v. Wade. As the ZEF develops from zygote to birth, the state can take a progressively greater interest in it and impose limits after a certain point. Under Planned Parenthood v. Casey, that point was viability. How many Republicans would go along with a compromise that drew the line at 20 weeks? Maybe you could pass a nationwide limit at 6 weeks, but not enough Democrats would accept that.
I was gratified to see coverage of the five women who are suing the state of Texas. Those are the kind of horror stories that people need to keep hearing. I predict we'll hear more of those as the election season heats up. They're happening all the time, they just need to be reported on.
The Republicans want abortion to go away, or at least, some of them do. Obviously the ones passing draconian laws on the state level don't want it to go away. Neither do the Democrats as abortion rights are a winning issue for them. Ron DeSantis is pushing for a 6-week ban in Florida; if he's successful and he ends up as the nominee, Biden (or whoever the Democratic nominee is) will definitely bring that up.
The story about the Texas judge isn't manipulation to keep us upset; it's an example of an authoritarian power grab. The plaintiffs don't even have standing. They only filed in that district because there's only one judge there and he's known as an anti-abortion fanatic.
I was gratified to see coverage of the five women who are suing the state of Texas. Those are the kind of horror stories that people need to keep hearing. I predict we'll hear more of those as the election season heats up. They're happening all the time, they just need to be reported on.
The Republicans want abortion to go away, or at least, some of them do. Obviously the ones passing draconian laws on the state level don't want it to go away. Neither do the Democrats as abortion rights are a winning issue for them. Ron DeSantis is pushing for a 6-week ban in Florida; if he's successful and he ends up as the nominee, Biden (or whoever the Democratic nominee is) will definitely bring that up.
The story about the Texas judge isn't manipulation to keep us upset; it's an example of an authoritarian power grab. The plaintiffs don't even have standing. They only filed in that district because there's only one judge there and he's known as an anti-abortion fanatic.
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@Lila15
Not with that attitude, no. But I assure you, if you expect abortion to be made safe and legal, one will need to be formed.
That wasn't a compromise. That was the court issuing a ruling to make abortion safe and legal until proper legislation could be enacted by Congress.
Well, they didn't do anything on that for almost 50 years. Partly because good Catholics like Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi refused to consider it.
It's entirely in the realm of possibilities. You saw a compromise reached on homosexual marriage, did you not?
I was gratified to see coverage of the five women who are suing the state of Texas. Those are the kind of horror stories that people need to keep hearing. I predict we'll hear more of those as the election season heats up. They're happening all the time, they just need to be reported on
Don't agree, its a waste of time. Texas isn't going to make abortion legal anytime soon, a national law is needed to address this issue.
I disagree, its exactly for that reason as well as to distract you from how Congress isn't bothering on any of this even though the DNC and media made abortion a central issue of the midterm elections.
There is no compromise on abortion.
Not with that attitude, no. But I assure you, if you expect abortion to be made safe and legal, one will need to be formed.
We already had a compromise with Roe v. Wade.
That wasn't a compromise. That was the court issuing a ruling to make abortion safe and legal until proper legislation could be enacted by Congress.
Well, they didn't do anything on that for almost 50 years. Partly because good Catholics like Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi refused to consider it.
How many Republicans would go along with a compromise that drew the line at 20 weeks? Maybe you could pass a nationwide limit at 6 weeks, but not enough Democrats would accept that.
It's entirely in the realm of possibilities. You saw a compromise reached on homosexual marriage, did you not?
I was gratified to see coverage of the five women who are suing the state of Texas. Those are the kind of horror stories that people need to keep hearing. I predict we'll hear more of those as the election season heats up. They're happening all the time, they just need to be reported on
Don't agree, its a waste of time. Texas isn't going to make abortion legal anytime soon, a national law is needed to address this issue.
The story about the Texas judge isn't manipulation to keep us upset;
I disagree, its exactly for that reason as well as to distract you from how Congress isn't bothering on any of this even though the DNC and media made abortion a central issue of the midterm elections.
Lila15 · 22-25, F
@SumKindaMunster The people unwilling to compromise are the conservative pro-lifers who didn't see Roe v. Wade as the compromise that it was. Although with 600,000 abortions per year, I can see why they didn't view that as a compromise. Although, 93% were in the first trimester, and most of the remainder were situations where the mother wanted the baby but couldn't complete the pregnancy due to her own health or the fetus', and most PL say they would allow abortion to save the mother's life at least. A better compromise would be what many European countries have - abortion on demand up to 15 weeks, with later abortions approved for health conditions.
It's not just that the Democrats didn't pass a nationwide abortion law. The Republicans didn't pass one either when they could have. Both sides made the mistake of assuming that it was a judicial issue and not a legislative one. Roe v. Wade gave Republicans cover to take a "principled" position without being held accountable. Now they are in a situation where they have to appease the anti-abortion extremists on one side, while not alienating pro-choice Republicans whose support they also need. Ron DeSantis will soon have to decide if he signs the 6-week ban in Florida. If he doesn't sign it, he's a "liberal baby-killer," and if he does sign it, the Democrats will use that as proof that he wants to impose that limit nationwide.
I wouldn't say there was a compromise on same-sex marriage. The liberals won completely as it's now legal nationwide and same-sex couples have the same rights as hetero couples. A compromise would have limited those rights in some ways, like allowing "civil unions" or some other relationship short of marriage.
I know the lawsuit in Texas is hopeless. But the more stories there are like this, the more abortion remains in peoples' minds as an important issue. The Republicans would prefer to make the next election about crime and inflation, because they know abortion is a losing issue for them. You say Texas won't legalize abortion, but if the people of Texas could vote on it in a statewide referendum, it would be legal there just as they voted in Kansas which is a more conservative state.
It's not just that the Democrats didn't pass a nationwide abortion law. The Republicans didn't pass one either when they could have. Both sides made the mistake of assuming that it was a judicial issue and not a legislative one. Roe v. Wade gave Republicans cover to take a "principled" position without being held accountable. Now they are in a situation where they have to appease the anti-abortion extremists on one side, while not alienating pro-choice Republicans whose support they also need. Ron DeSantis will soon have to decide if he signs the 6-week ban in Florida. If he doesn't sign it, he's a "liberal baby-killer," and if he does sign it, the Democrats will use that as proof that he wants to impose that limit nationwide.
I wouldn't say there was a compromise on same-sex marriage. The liberals won completely as it's now legal nationwide and same-sex couples have the same rights as hetero couples. A compromise would have limited those rights in some ways, like allowing "civil unions" or some other relationship short of marriage.
I know the lawsuit in Texas is hopeless. But the more stories there are like this, the more abortion remains in peoples' minds as an important issue. The Republicans would prefer to make the next election about crime and inflation, because they know abortion is a losing issue for them. You say Texas won't legalize abortion, but if the people of Texas could vote on it in a statewide referendum, it would be legal there just as they voted in Kansas which is a more conservative state.
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@Lila15
Agreed, I was also fine with the compromise Roe v Wade imposed, again its a shame Congress didn't codify something when they had the chance.
Correct, but the Republicans didn't make this cause one they wanted to champion and fund raise on with the promise of legislative action, which the Democrats did.
Nonsense, it was a rare bipartisan compromise.
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/29/1139676719/same-sex-marriages-bill-senate-vote
I don't see it as a conundrum for DeSantis. While he is running for the nomination he can be as partisan as he pleases, in fact, it behooves him to promote issues his base wants pursued, if and when he gets the nomination, then he can start compromising and saying he might be open to compromise on this issue, until then expect him to be as uncompromising and stubborn as the Democrats are on CRT or transgenderism.
Yup, which is why the Dems and the Media made abortion the central issue of the midterms and then quietly dropped it, which I think brings this conversation to a full circle....😉
The people unwilling to compromise are the conservative pro-lifers who didn't see Roe v. Wade as the compromise that it was
Yes, but there is a plurality that supports abortion rights with limits. There will always be an extreme edge that will never support abortion, but that is irrelevant to the greater good. A better compromise would be what many European countries have - abortion on demand up to 15 weeks, with later abortions approved for health conditions.
Agreed, I was also fine with the compromise Roe v Wade imposed, again its a shame Congress didn't codify something when they had the chance.
It's not just that the Democrats didn't pass a nationwide abortion law. The Republicans didn't pass one either when they could have. Both sides made the mistake of assuming that it was a judicial issue and not a legislative one
Correct, but the Republicans didn't make this cause one they wanted to champion and fund raise on with the promise of legislative action, which the Democrats did.
I wouldn't say there was a compromise on same-sex marriage.
Nonsense, it was a rare bipartisan compromise.
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/29/1139676719/same-sex-marriages-bill-senate-vote
Both the House and the Senate have passed the Respect for Marriage Act, which codifies same-sex and interracial marriages. The bill will head to President Joe Biden's desk to be signed into law, which is expected to happen soon.
[i]The legislation passed 258-169 in the House Thursday with bipartisan support[/i], after passing through the Senate last week with a 61-36 vote. Twelve Republican senators voted in favor of the bill.
[i]The legislation passed 258-169 in the House Thursday with bipartisan support[/i], after passing through the Senate last week with a 61-36 vote. Twelve Republican senators voted in favor of the bill.
Now they are in a situation where they have to appease the anti-abortion extremists on one side, while not alienating pro-choice Republicans whose support they also need. Ron DeSantis will soon have to decide if he signs the 6-week ban in Florida. If he doesn't sign it, he's a "liberal baby-killer," and if he does sign it, the Democrats will use that as proof that he wants to impose that limit nationwide.
I don't see it as a conundrum for DeSantis. While he is running for the nomination he can be as partisan as he pleases, in fact, it behooves him to promote issues his base wants pursued, if and when he gets the nomination, then he can start compromising and saying he might be open to compromise on this issue, until then expect him to be as uncompromising and stubborn as the Democrats are on CRT or transgenderism.
The Republicans would prefer to make the next election about crime and inflation, because they know abortion is a losing issue for them
Yup, which is why the Dems and the Media made abortion the central issue of the midterms and then quietly dropped it, which I think brings this conversation to a full circle....😉
Lila15 · 22-25, F
@SumKindaMunster Republicans tend to campaign to the right in primaries, and tack to the center in the general. It's going to be hard for DeSantis to sign a 6-week ban in Florida, then say that he's "open to compromise" later. Democrats will hammer him as an extremist and Republicans will call him a flip-flopper. His best bet is to stay consistent and hope that Biden is unpopular enough to allow him to win with the Republican base (assuming, of course, that he's the nominee). With his positions on "wokeness" and opposition to trans rights, he might as well stay an anti-abortion extremist.
I disagree that the Democrats have dropped the abortion issue. It's front and center in the Wisconsin judicial election on April 4. Janet Protasiewicz, a pro-choice liberal, is facing Daniel Kelly, a pro-life conservative, and the winner will determine the balance of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. The race just isn't making the national news, so most people outside of Wisconsin aren't aware of it. As the 2024 election approaches, you'll hear more Democrats talking about abortion. In Pennsylvania, Doug Mastriano is reportedly contemplating a Senate run against Bob Casey. I'm sure I don't have to tell you who they are and what positions they have. Abortion will be a major issue in that race.
I disagree that the Democrats have dropped the abortion issue. It's front and center in the Wisconsin judicial election on April 4. Janet Protasiewicz, a pro-choice liberal, is facing Daniel Kelly, a pro-life conservative, and the winner will determine the balance of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. The race just isn't making the national news, so most people outside of Wisconsin aren't aware of it. As the 2024 election approaches, you'll hear more Democrats talking about abortion. In Pennsylvania, Doug Mastriano is reportedly contemplating a Senate run against Bob Casey. I'm sure I don't have to tell you who they are and what positions they have. Abortion will be a major issue in that race.
SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M
@Lila15
Yeah. I don't think DeSantis gets the nomination, the culture is aligning against him, I think someone else sneaks under the radar.
Hm, see I think this goes to proving my point, which is Congress and the Democrats have washed their hands of abortion as an issue. All of this that you cited is at the state and judicial level and my point was that abortion has been dropped at the legislative level. They haven't fulfilled the promise implied, that they would protect abortion rights. They manipulated you for your vote, then cast you aside when no longer needed.
Republicans tend to campaign to the right in primaries, and tack to the center in the general. It's going to be hard for DeSantis to sign a 6-week ban in Florida, then say that he's "open to compromise" later. Democrats will hammer him as an extremist and Republicans will call him a flip-flopper. His best bet is to stay consistent and hope that Biden is unpopular enough to allow him to win with the Republican base (assuming, of course, that he's the nominee). With his positions on "wokeness" and opposition to trans rights, he might as well stay an anti-abortion extremist.
Yeah. I don't think DeSantis gets the nomination, the culture is aligning against him, I think someone else sneaks under the radar.
I disagree that the Democrats have dropped the abortion issue. It's front and center in the Wisconsin judicial election on April 4. Janet Protasiewicz, a pro-choice liberal, is facing Daniel Kelly, a pro-life conservative, and the winner will determine the balance of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. The race just isn't making the national news, so most people outside of Wisconsin aren't aware of it. As the 2024 election approaches, you'll hear more Democrats talking about abortion. In Pennsylvania, Doug Mastriano is reportedly contemplating a Senate run against Bob Casey. I'm sure I don't have to tell you who they are and what positions they have. Abortion will be a major issue in that race.
Hm, see I think this goes to proving my point, which is Congress and the Democrats have washed their hands of abortion as an issue. All of this that you cited is at the state and judicial level and my point was that abortion has been dropped at the legislative level. They haven't fulfilled the promise implied, that they would protect abortion rights. They manipulated you for your vote, then cast you aside when no longer needed.
Lila15 · 22-25, F
@SumKindaMunster I don't think DeSantis will be nominated either. If Trump is still viable, he wins the plurality in each state, and the non-Trump vote gets split among a dozen candidates, same as in 2016. The Republican primaries are winner-take-all for whoever gets the most votes. If Trump isn't viable, then I agree, DeSantis still doesn't get nominated. I think he's peaking too early, and many of the people supporting him now just want a younger version of Trump, and they've decided he's it even though they know almost nothing about him.
There is no legislative solution to abortion right now, because some magical Abortion Rights Protection Act will never get past the House or survive a Senate filibuster. Even if some Republicans are secretly pro-choice or couldn't care less, they know abortion is a hot issue and aren't going to tank their careers over it. Look what happened to McCain, just for voting to preserve the ACA, not because he liked the law, but because he thought it hadn't been debated enough. There's no point in the Democrats proposing performative legislation now. They should wait until it gets closer to the election so it's fresh in everyone's mind.
Meanwhile, a judge in Texas is about to rule that the FDA erred when it approved mifepristone 22 years ago. Biden should pull an Andrew Jackson and say "Judge Kacsmaryk has his decision, now let him enforce it."
There is no legislative solution to abortion right now, because some magical Abortion Rights Protection Act will never get past the House or survive a Senate filibuster. Even if some Republicans are secretly pro-choice or couldn't care less, they know abortion is a hot issue and aren't going to tank their careers over it. Look what happened to McCain, just for voting to preserve the ACA, not because he liked the law, but because he thought it hadn't been debated enough. There's no point in the Democrats proposing performative legislation now. They should wait until it gets closer to the election so it's fresh in everyone's mind.
Meanwhile, a judge in Texas is about to rule that the FDA erred when it approved mifepristone 22 years ago. Biden should pull an Andrew Jackson and say "Judge Kacsmaryk has his decision, now let him enforce it."