Old age is not natural.

It just doesn't happen in the wild where the lifestyle is healthy and every animal is physically fit and active.

We, on the other hand, propped up by modern medicine, live way past our sell-by dates like shriveled brown leaves clinging to branches of trees in the harshness of winter.

It's not natural.

This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »

DunningKruger · 61-69, M

That's rather like arguing that a dam built by beavers for the purposes of beavers is "natural," but a dam built by humans for the purposes of humans somehow isn't.

Yes, I did steal that from Heinlein.

sree251 · 41-45, M

@DunningKruger I see the reasoning but don't agree with the argument. Our way of life is definitely not natural because it is artificial. Walking on our two legs is a natural way to move around. Climbing on a horse to travel is not natural. However, we have created an artificial world that is natural to us.

DunningKruger · 61-69, M

@sree251 Basically, you're saying that anything humans do with intention is somehow artificial and unnatural. This is a specious argument, in my opinion.

sree251 · 41-45, M

@DunningKruger Artificial means man-made. Even the dictionary says that. Don't moralize it. I don't.

DunningKruger · 61-69, M

@sree251 I believe that logical fallacy is called "begging the question."

sree251 · 41-45, M

@DunningKruger Look, we are not natural. You hit the nail on the head pinning down intent as not natural. Intent is an act of will directed to accomplish a goal. When a cheetah triangulates its trajectory to close in on its prey, is there intent at play? Or is that natural reflex, a mindless reaction?

DunningKruger · 61-69, M

@sree251 Of course a cheetah has intent. His intent is to run down that impala and have dinner. The cheetah makes choices such as whether to make a go for it or not, to go left instead of right and so on and so forth. The cheetah is driven by primal need — we've all got to eat — and influenced by his innate physical capabilities. And certainly his conscious thinking about the situation does not resemble what a human would do. But it's certain a creature with some degree of free will executing his ability to make a choice.

sree251 · 41-45, M

@DunningKruger I am not a cheetah. I wouldn't know if intent, as we know it, is at play for animals. They seem to driven by stimuli in the natural world. When it chases down prey, its heart speeds up to drive more oxygen for firing the muscles in its body. Is there intent here also?