If you came from nothing and return to nothing when you die why do you want to debate?

@Bad4U Ha ha Hippy is more educated in science than most to be sure! What is your education?

@Carazaa just chemistry but we have our fair share of physics. anyway its enough to know that concepts of before and after dont apply to the beginning of the universe.

time is a concept that is linked to the universe so there is no "before" the universe

@Bad4U Why don't the same rules apply?

@hippyjoe1955 because most of our logic is based on how we perceive the world. the quantum world is not in any way logic, and anyone who claims they understand it in its entirety is lieing or maybe some steven hawkings like brain. how ever there is enough concepts we can describe mathematically... those forumuals check out.. but they make no sense to our minds...

easy example would be the sum of all natural numbers from 1 to infinity is -1/12 thats sounds like complete nonsense... but its a perfect example how human brains are not compatible with infinitiy systems either big or small

@Bad4U So we can just toss out any understanding we have of the universe if it doesn't suit our wishes?

@hippyjoe1955 why would wishes be relevant to it ? physics is far ahead of philosophy and theology... and they are desperaterly trying to catch up.

@Bad4U That is what you just said. If you can't explain it logically just throw out the rules that you don't like. Seems a bit of an odd way to look at the world to anyone that is not a liberal.

@hippyjoe1955 well you can hardly see physics from the 19th century as the answer to everything. we observe events that you cant explain and so you get a better model that explains and predicts more. thats how science works, it keeps improving its models to become more complex. nothing is written in stone everything is up for debate given proof

@Bad4U Well you can hardly throw physics out the window and ignore the latest understandings.

@hippyjoe1955 noone is throwing things out of the window... its just that the explanation gets more complex... cause we learn new stuff and realize the universe is even more complex.

19th century physics just barely managed to comprehend atoms... how could they even come up with explanations for quarks behaviour ?

@Bad4U You did when you said we can't apply our understanding to the beginnings because you said you couldn't understand the beginnings. Strange how convenient that is eh wot?

@hippyjoe1955 humans brains are like 400 generations away from when we were living on trees... our brain is quite amazing... but do you really think it evolved to a point yet where we can fully understand the nature of the universe ?

@Bad4U According to Darwin. Too bad his theory is so full of holes.

@hippyjoe1955 ugh.. i shouldnt have mentioned evolution i guess. if you wanna switch topics we can talk about that too but i prefer we stay on topic for now.

@Bad4U Nope. You were the one that mentioned outdated science not me.

@hippyjoe1955 well as soon as anyone comes up with a better theory it is what it is... but there is nothing

@Bad4U So you feel the same way about physics and its 'outdated' theories?

@hippyjoe1955 [quote]So we can just toss out any understanding we have of the universe if it doesn't suit our wishes?[/quote]
That's exactly what religion does.

@Sharon Wrong. Nice try though. Funnily enough Christianity has not changed its theory and it has stood up to 5000 years of experience and testing. A lot of secular scientists are coming to that realization.

@Sharon I find it frustrating to discuss science, and history with religious fundamentalists.

@hippyjoe1955 i dont feel about physics... there is models and models are tested and when they are found to be true they stay true until there are flaws or they no longer can explain a phenomen.

darwins teachings have been improved and can explain evolution without the slightest doubts. newtons physics arent wrong.. they have been improved too and are now capable of explaining a lot more.

however we do know that our knowledge at the moment is limited in regards to quantum physics and thats why there is huge efforts to learn more... to eventually come up with a better theory... will it be string theory ? will be a unified theory with those newly discovered and foretold bosons ? i dont know... and you dont know either.

@hippyjoe1955 [quote] Funnily enough Christianity has not changed its theory [/quote]
despite being proven wrong time and time again.

@hippyjoe1955 absolutely nothingin the bible is in any way scientific... it never was intended to be. take the bible as what it is... a testament to the morals and struggles of jews 5000 years ago.

i do think its a great book of mankind, up there with homers odyssee or the writings of buddha etc etc...

but noone would be insane enough to explain navigation by referring homers odyssee

@hippyjoe1955 You should listen to Bad4U... she has more scientific nous than you can ever aspire to.

On the other hand, I realise that she represents the two things you fear most... she’s an educated female.

@hippyjoe1955 [quote]Why don't the same rules apply?[/quote]

Because all positions in space must be relative to something else (there are no absolute positions), so all movement must be relative to something else, and as time is rate of change in position, then time is also relative.

Without expansion nothing is relative to anything else, so everything is everywhere and time can't exist. That’s why we use the term ’singularity’, and it’s why we use the term ’spacetime’.

Spacetime is only extant with expansion (or contraction for that matter)

There is no ‘before’ expansion