Although reading like karl marx and peter Kropotkin have been incredibly influential on me.

@sree251 socialism is advocating for common ownership of the means of production and public services

@sree251 life made me realise that gross inequality exists and its unjust

@Guitarman123
You can have everyone start off at the same time at the starting line but they won't all arrive at the same time at the finish line. Some people get bad breaks and some people get lucky. People are not made equal to begin with. They don't come out of factories like Toyota Camrys made exactly to specs. You know what I am getting at. Everybody's face is different. Nature is not uniform. This is why we have affirmative action.

@Guitarman123
You know we are not all equally smart and capable at doing stuff. You see that in school where class scores are all over the place. Does common ownership where each has an equal share of control of production and services gives equal returns? This works if everyone has nothing to do with the successful operation production and provision of services.

@sree251 we all have different strengths and weaknesses which in the right circumstances can be incredibly useful.

@Guitarman123
I agree. Right circumstances. How do we get this?

@sree251 common ownership

@Guitarman123

I addressed this already. My response was:

Does common ownership where each has an equal share of control of production and services gives equal returns? This works if everyone has nothing to do with the successful operation production and provision of services.

Let's say you and I and everyone in America own an equal share of all the corporations and small businesses. Who are going to bear the losses of failing companies like USPS (Post Office)? Will we distribute this equally? Naturally, profits from well-performing businesses like Apple will also be distributed equally. According to statistics out there, 90% of start-ups fail and lose all their money. Across the board, 70% of businesses eventually fail. These are the facts despite the drive and energy of people who struggle to make their business ventures work.

Most of us don't have the guts, energy, or drive to succeed. This is why we work for a living driving trucks for Amazon and flipping burgers at MacDonalds. We are the ones who believe in socialism while folks like Warren Buffet and Elon Musk prefer capitalism.

Think about this, Guitarman. Let me know if my analysis is wrong and explain why it is wrong.

@sree251 we prefer to have control over our own lives and dont want to make profits for those who wouldn't piss on us if we were on fire. People work for a wage in order to be able to survive

@Guitarman123
I hear you. If we don't work for a wage, what can we do? Also, the profits made by successful businesses like Amazon are not made by its employees. The employees like you and me are just like parts in a business enterprise similar to parts of a machine. We are company assets like the bolts and nuts of a truck or Boeing jetiner owned by Delta or Southern Airline.

@sree251 its labour that produces the wealth that people like musk and bezos enjoy

@Guitarman123
Does an enterprising farmer produce wealth or is it generated by his migrant workers?

@sree251 labour produces profits

@Guitarman123
True, but it is only part of the equation. Let's say you are the farmer and you make $1000 profit after covering the cost of labor from 100 workers whom you paid $100 each. You keep $100 for yourself for your own labor. The balance of $900 you put aside to hedge your risk on next year's crop in case of poor weather and poor crop harvest. If that happens, you will have no income while your workers go elsewhere to work for their living. You can't go anywhere because you are stuck on the farm. You would need to dig into that $900 reserve fund to pay for mortgage and property taxes on the farm to keep your farming business going. Labor don't give a shit. Do you want to talk about this or is it to head spinning?

@sree251 employers generally dont give a shit about about labour either as they are chasing profits. Small businesses yes do have a greater challenge than big businesses and many businesses fail within the first five years. Still doesn't mean that a labourer shouldn't be paid less than what they deserve as a worker.

@sree251 thats not completely true. Yes we are highly competitive but we are also very social and have worked in mutual co operation with each other

@Guitarman123
Of course. It would be great if cooperation is universal and not limited to pockets of people here and there. China has lifted millions out of poverty but we see China as a threat. They do co operate with one another but we don't like what they are doing even though they collectively own the means of production and public services.

@sree251 cooperation is not only universal but its a part of who we are. Even darwin recognised that humans are a social species. Look at how we reacted during covid lockdowns. We were all to varying degrees driven insane because we couldn't see friends and family. Yes we are driven by self interest

@sree251 but we can be positively driven by our individual self interests to benefit another individual

@Guitarman123
The fact that we gather to live together in tribes, and mega cities of tens of millions show a need to be together. Unfortunately, we also compete against and kill each other for survival. We do have a love hate relationship going. Cooperation and self-interest are opposing tendencies. There is not enough cooperation and too much acrimony among people.

@Guitarman123
This is an interesting take on human relationship. The only instance of this is maternal love. It is a natural instinct to protect your own. Why can't we love each other that way? It does happen but rare.

@sree251 read mutual aid by peter Kropotkin

@Guitarman123
Kropotkin was an idealist. All intellectuals are idealists. Human nature is far from ideal for forming a harmonious society. We just can't get along with each other although everyone believe that it is the only way to bring about a perfect society.

Have you look within yourself introspectively to find out why you can get along with other people?

@sree251 his book isnt saying that we get along with each other perfectly. Hes stating that mutual aid is a factor of evolution and as an important part of nature as competition is.