A great little lecture on the origin of Zionism as a secular movement

@MartinTheFirst Are you Jewish or know any Jewish people?

@NativePortlander1970 no

@MartinTheFirst Judaism is a religious belief. Zionism is not. It’s a philosophy/movement. Has little to do with the religious part of Judaism. It’s just Jews forming their own country in their homeland

@Zeuro Zionism is religious as well, besides being the secular state of Israel, pro Zionist Jews are also the most deeply religious ones, I can guarantee that Bibi is no reformist, or Atheist.

@NativePortlander1970 well yes religious Jews tend to on average be more Zionist than the average secular Jew, as religious Jews are overall more invested in being Jewish, but the roots of Zionism of very secular. I encourage you to watch the video, it explains a lot

@NativePortlander1970 also you can be a Zionist and fully secular, do it’s not actually religious

@Zeuro I do not know many secular Zionists like myself, I maybe a goyim Atheist, but I am a very firm supporter of Zionism and the Jewish People, I have known and been Friends with many, many Jewish People over the decades of my life.

@NativePortlander1970 well I guess you haven’t known many secular Jews in general. Like 90% of Jews are Zionists, religious or secular, any secular Jew (or anyone in general) who supports the existence of Israel is a Zionist. I consider myself a secular, Zionist Jew.

@Zeuro Most Jewish People I know are more orthodox religious, but not Hasidic.

@Zeuro It doesn't have to be strictly judaism to be religious, nor do they have to call themselves something to be it. Clearly it originates from the religious belief that Jewish people belong to a very specific place because God told them that, hence it's a religious belief. It can have political consequences, sure. You can't change this fact no matter how you try, or how many Jews you know as suggested by Portlander.

@MartinTheFirst the idea that Jews are from Israel is not solely from the Bible. It is historical fact. You don’t have to believe any religious texts to recognize that Israel is the Jewish homeland. So no, you are mistaken. Zionism is not a religious belief. Now the Bible may have been the primary source documenting this history at the time, but these days we have anthropology and genetic studies to back it up.

@Zeuro Well, in my opinion the Bible is historical fact, it just retells the history. That's what Jews believe as well. I personally do not believe that people are ready to go into war and commit genocide for the sake of saying "we used to live there, we were there first!". It's definitely still rooted in the religious beliefs that they have to be there.

@MartinTheFirst first of all, they’re not committing a genocide, that is fictitious. It’s a war.. If Israel wanted to commit a genocide, every last Gazan would be dead by now. Unlike Gaza’s government, Israel does not deliberately target civilians. Collateral damage does not fit the definition of genocide. Not to mention the false reporting coming out of Gaza’s Hamas-run ministry of health.

Also, the idea that the land a people originate from is not at all rooted in religion. It is a universally accepted concept, except when it comes to Jews for some reason (*cough* antisemitism). In fact, it’s a concept touted by misguided pro Palestine activists when they falsely assert that Palestinians are indigenous to the region of Israel (whereas the Jews are supposedly “white colonizers”, because these people are ignorant of history).

The fact remains that Jews have had a continuous presence in their ancestral homeland since before Islam even existed, and before the Arabs that Palestinians decent from conquered the land as part of their Islamist colonial efforts.

Also, you are aware why there is currently a war in Gaza, right? It has nothing to do with Jews saying “we were there first!”, it has everything to do with the actually genocidal actions of terrorist organization and Gaza’s government Hamas, who continue to hold hostages taken on October 7th. This war would be all over if they would simply release the hostages, but of course the terrorists refuse. It is completely outrageous to blame Israel for the continuation of the war, to expect them to simply abandon the remaining hostages and let Hamas have their way with them, innocent civilians who have done nothing to deserve their current captivity. Meanwhile Israel has achieved the lowest civilian to combatant death ratio in modern warfare, making the claim of genocide even more ridiculous given how few of those they kill are civilians and how many are terrorist combatants.

@Zeuro https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/dec/23/israel-gaza-war-genocide-where-is-the-action

@MartinTheFirst https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/01/18/charging-israel-with-genocide-makes-a-mockery-of-the-icj?utm_source=chatgpt.com

https://www.aei.org/op-eds/israel-is-not-committing-genocide-in-gaza/

See

@Zeuro Okay, so we can't trust anything we read online because there are different publications that say different things, at that point we don't have anything to discuss anymore because it's all coming from things we read online. I'm fine with that take, but it ends our discussion.

@MartinTheFirst so you admit that you have no legitimate argument. Because you only need to look at the literal definition of genocide to know that it’s not what’s happening. It doesn’t take someone to write it in a paper to figure it out

@Zeuro okay, you win. You happy?

@MartinTheFirst well, I’m glad I was able to correct the record. So sure I guess I’m happy

@Zeuro Good ☺