The Powerful Placebo! Mind over matter...right? WRONG. There's no magical placebo effect despite what quack Homeopaths or credulous reporters tell you

@Alfarrobas

Sure, if confidence is what you need to succeed than Dumbo's magic feather is sufficient.
But that's what i'm differentiating between when i say that there is no magic placebo effect for objective outcomes,

@Pikachu well... like I said. If the placebo effect gives you the nudge, the confidence you need, and in the game you score one goal and give the team the win... well... that's pretty objective outcome.
The placebo effect is more a mental thing, than a phisical one. But your mind can greatlly manifest in phisical aspect.
But, it won't make you ran 2x faster if you have no real phisical atributes to that. In the best way, may give you the right mental state to achieve part of your pontential, if you also have the atributes and capacity for it.

@Alfarrobas

But the example you're giving is not a placebo effect.

By this definition, a nice shirt and a new haircut are placebos because you might have confidence to ask someone out and they might say yes: an objective outcome

Confidence is not a medical outcome.

Like you can give an asthmatic a sham inhaler and they can feel confident that they can now perform better on a lung capacity test...but they won't.

@Pikachu I said it was the nudge you needed was via a pill. It can be a simple sugar pill. Of course if I give people anything just for it, a person can imagine what they want. But if the pill is like "steroids" that make you better, and it's know has that but only a plain sugar pill, or a kind of small dough pill, but you believe that is a performance pill that makes you better than you are, you feel more assured. But only works in the right mindset, not in all. If you are already pretty confident, assured of your habilities, etc. etc., can have the opposite effect. If not, can have a good effect.

And like I said. "But, it won't make you ran 2x faster if you have no real phisical atributes to do that. In the best way, may give you the right mental state to achieve part of your pontential, if you also have the atributes and capacity for it."
Of course if you give a person that needs oxigen, nitrogen and make them believe it's oxigen, they will still die.
Like I said, the placebo effect is a mental thing, not a phisical thing. And you know that mental can greatlly affect material things.
Like some atletes have somekind of lucky charm. Placebo effect. With that, or not, they would performe the same. But the existence of that makes them more mentally assured and ready. And that, in their turn, makes them more ready in the phisical.

@Alfarrobas

It sounds like you're just agreeing that only in subjective experience can placebos have an effect.
Yes, that's what i'm saying.
But in objective outcomes, there is no "mind over matter" effect from placebo.
Being more confident won't make your lungs work better or heal your knee faster.

@Pikachu I am.
But like I said. You are just seeing things rigidlly.
"If the placebo effect gives you the nudge, the confidence you need, and in the game you score one goal and give the team the win... well... that's pretty objective outcome."
Isn't that an objective outcome?
He has all the skill and knowledge. Didn't had enough confidence. I gave him a placebo pill that is know has "the miracle", and gave that shit story about, or the guys in team all give that story about it.
He goes in the field, feeling more assured in what he knows and does, and scores the winning goal.
Thats pretty objective.
Of course he didn't went from a pole to the Puskas of the team just because of the pill. He had in him, just didn't knew and believed he had all that capacity.

The mind does have a bigger effect over the body. It can help you go the extra mile.
There is a team here where all the former players from some years ago they said it had the mentally of, when talking about the adversary in a game "we will eat. them. We can eat them all" (some loosing in translation), but that mentally of giving it all in the field, of taking no prisioners and seeing has a matter of do or die, made them a more agressive and attacking team, that could intimadate the adversary that would condition the adversary to be more tame and afraid, if they didn't had the correct mentally.
This one is not a example of mentallity, but of how strong can the right mind set and thinking can make a diference in an objective outcome.

@Alfarrobas
It seems to me that all you are saying is that when it comes to having the confidence to do what you can already do, a magic feather can [ i]motivate [/i] you to do it.
It can't change what you were already capable of, it can't objectively effect any material change.
So it can only change your perception. Which is the point i'm making.

Placebos can only change your perception, they cannot change any objective outcome.

@Pikachu No. Not what I'm saying in part.
They can change your outcome. Your objective outcome.
If you feel more confident, you feel more ready to do more and give more.
When you feel down, you are the opposite.
Again, the example of scoring the goal. If I hadn't gave him the placebo, with all the stories around that magic pill, he would have went to the game, suffer a tie and all done.
With the pill he had the confidance to charge aggainst the defender, make a tunel, and score a goal from a low kick.
In normal terms, he would had just passed the ball to the wing, the wide man would cross, like normal, and the defence would cut the ball with a header since they are taller than the forwards.

The diference there? Mindset. Confidence. Assured of something, in this case, via a placebo.

@Alfarrobas

If you feel more confident, you feel more ready to do more and give more.

Yes, and a nice shirt and a new haircut can make you feel confident enough to ask out that girl.
Or a pill you believe makes your pheromones irresistible.
This is not placebo, it's a self esteem booster.

There is no objective, physiological change. There is a change in your attitude.
And that is the limit of placebo.
There is no mind over matter alteration. No amount of confidence can cure a fever.

You continue to agree that placebo can only change your perception of reality, not allow your perception to alter reality.

@Pikachu if you didn't had the confidance to ask the girl out. Would the objective outcome be the same?
You either assume the either you ask her out, or not, she will always say no.
Or that if you asked her out, or not, should always say yes.
In that way, there is no diference in an objective outcome.

If you assume that if you asking the girl there is an outcome of either yes, or no, the objective outcome can be changed. Assuming that never asking her, would always be a no since you made no significant move to assure that a yes is a possibility.

Because for you an objective outcomes seems only a phisical thing vs a phicical thing.
If you break a finger, you break a finger.
If a dog shits, he shits shit.
Yes. If you have only material reasons that can influence the outcome, you can only have, most times, material solutions for the same outcome.
If your outcome can be influenced by material and mental reasons, the solution can have both, or either one of the influences.

It's easier for a thing that works in practice to work in realitty, than a theoretical thing, but many things that exist started has a theory that exists in a practical and real world.
Again, from the mind to the material.

@Alfarrobas


If you didn't have the confidence that your fever would be cured, would the objective outcome be the same?
Yup.

It seems to me that your only example is that confidence can allow you to achieve an end of which you were already capable.
This is not the placebo effect.

@Pikachu And your example is a fever.
You are here to sustain your view? Or do debate?
If you want to stay the same, don't ask a question. Don't make a post. Talk to yourself.
If you only see black and white, that is your choice. But don't take everything as a fever. I'm showing you an example where an imaterial thing can influence an objective outcome. And what you do? "But if you have confidance that your fever will go down, it won't". Great, you found out gunpowder. Let's warn Europe from the 1300, they won't need to get it from China.
I won't explain all of it over again.

@Alfarrobas

My example is indeed a fever. But you can replace that example with any objective outcome you can think of.
You'll never find that homeopathy can produce an objectively measurable effect.


No...you're not.
So far the best you've given me is that based on assumption that correlation equals causation, you attribute a cure to homeopathy even though you cannot demonstrate that to be the case.
And homeopathy has NEVER been able to demonstrate efficacy.

I'm open to debate, it's just that your evidence is unverifiable anecdote and my evidence is clinical data.

@Alfarrobas

You seem to be getting a little upset but don't let that cause you to make assumptions about what i believe lol.

I haven't said that there isn't a relationship between the body and mind. All i've said is that the mind doesn't heal the body just because you thought your sugar pill was a paracetamol. Your mind won't heal the bone spurs in your shoulder if you're given a sham intervention. Your mind won't make your lungs breath better just because you're given a fake inhaler that you believe is real.

Do you understand?

@Pikachu
"If your placebo is to make you believe you are bullet proof, that will fail as soon as it finds a bullet hitting you."

" "But, it won't make you ran 2x faster if you have no real phisical atributes to do that. In the best way, may give you the right mental state to achieve part of your pontential, if you also have the atributes and capacity for it."
Of course if you give a person that needs oxigen, nitrogen and make them believe it's oxigen, they will still die."

So, you have memory problems,or couldn't just be able to read?
Those over there are the two first things I've wrote. First post, and second post. You replied to both. You either don't know how to read, or didn't read. Maybe that's why you said " you attribute a cure to homeopathy even though you cannot demonstrate that to be the case."

Do you, now, understand?

@Alfarrobas

lol sorry, it's true i didn't remember that you said that.

So again, we agree that the placebo effects actually doesn't show a physiologic response under any objective measure.
I wonder why you're still so upset then lol

@Pikachu because you are dense. You didn't read what I said, or care about it. You assumed I was defending hemopathy and that showed in the final. You assumed a thing, missread all things foward and keept to your guns saying the same thing more concerned about fever and objective outcome.
And you still are. You still try using terms and ideas that can be affected by mental things. Mental states can afect you and have a physiologic response, like anxiety or worse, that can make you feel sick, trow up, etc.
And so on. I even suspect you use many words and expressions because it's a "slogan" thing that is a thing that you really think and know.
Objective response. And objective response. What the fuck is an objective response? Asking for milk and getting an "NO!" as reply? That's pretty objective response, even direct and loud. More objective than that is impossible.
🤦‍♂️

@Alfarrobas

lol i just said that i read what you said but forgot. Sorry that is so offensive to you.


Speaking of not paying attention to what one is reading, did you read the part where i already acknowledged that there is a connection between the mind and body?
Seems like you weren't paying attention.


I've already given you several examples of what i'm talking about. Weren't you paying attention?😉