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Invisible · 26-30, M
That kind of philosophy makes people seem kind of helpless :/
karinaal · 70-79, F
Sometimes we are helpless.
You are a lot younger than I am and one thing I have learned in my life is that very often it is not what we humans hope and pray for that is the best that can happen.
We tend to think that if just we get this or that that or if just this or that happens then we would forever be happy but typically what we desire just makes us happy for a brief time.
It also is my experience that often can something that we at first see as unfortunate turn out to be really good in the long run.
And if I feel the need to pray it is of course to a God I believe is almighty and knows everything including what is best for me.
You are a lot younger than I am and one thing I have learned in my life is that very often it is not what we humans hope and pray for that is the best that can happen.
We tend to think that if just we get this or that that or if just this or that happens then we would forever be happy but typically what we desire just makes us happy for a brief time.
It also is my experience that often can something that we at first see as unfortunate turn out to be really good in the long run.
And if I feel the need to pray it is of course to a God I believe is almighty and knows everything including what is best for me.
Invisible · 26-30, M
I think the big problem is perspective. People want things instead of wanting to [i]be[/i] things. It's almost like we have no pride for the things that we should be proud of. People look up to the people who slide to the top rather than the people who put in all the legwork.
karinaal · 70-79, F
I must admit that I have never wanted to be a thing or have seen other people as things.
Did I misunderstand you?
People take pride in many different things but to me it seems as if many today are rootless and canfused and do not know what values to believe in. I guess it has to do with how extremely fast things change in our days.
As for what we tend to look up to I will say that it depends very much on the culture we belong in. You are American and I am Danish and I can assure you that there are very big differences in what typically is admired in USA and what typically is admired in Denmark.
Did I misunderstand you?
People take pride in many different things but to me it seems as if many today are rootless and canfused and do not know what values to believe in. I guess it has to do with how extremely fast things change in our days.
As for what we tend to look up to I will say that it depends very much on the culture we belong in. You are American and I am Danish and I can assure you that there are very big differences in what typically is admired in USA and what typically is admired in Denmark.
karinaal · 70-79, F
That is true but again; this surely is more the case in a competitive culture than in a not so competitive culture. If focus is more on social skills and the ability to work together than on individual skills and performance then people automatically learn to care for us also because it is in their own best interest.
twistermind · 51-55, F
@karinaal: So interesting! This dialogue between you and invisible.
It's human to pray God for help to get the things we think that we need but, from my point of view, it's more mature and psychologically healthier, being able to accept the things that happen to us. It doesn't necesarily imply a pasive view but an active one in what we are doing towards these events that happens. In the end, they are the real ones.
Neither it has to mean that we are not gonna fight towards our goals or our dreams. Here, there's a saying I'm gonna mentioned by giving it a very free translation because it's in Spanish.
Praying God but working a lot.
So yeah, it's wise to think that the things that happens to us, are the best or how you mentioned, the things we need to go on building our dreams.
It's human to pray God for help to get the things we think that we need but, from my point of view, it's more mature and psychologically healthier, being able to accept the things that happen to us. It doesn't necesarily imply a pasive view but an active one in what we are doing towards these events that happens. In the end, they are the real ones.
Neither it has to mean that we are not gonna fight towards our goals or our dreams. Here, there's a saying I'm gonna mentioned by giving it a very free translation because it's in Spanish.
Praying God but working a lot.
So yeah, it's wise to think that the things that happens to us, are the best or how you mentioned, the things we need to go on building our dreams.
karinaal · 70-79, F
Sorry that I have not been able to respond before now.
I am not so sure that being able to accept what happens to us is more mature and psychologically healthier than praying to God for help and support.
When USA during WW I transported thousands of soldiers to Europe a remarkably big number of these soldiers had to be returned to USA without getting into battle. The suffered from nervous breakdowns caused by the fearful stress they had experienced when knowing that any moment the ship that transported them could be hit by a torpedo from a German U-boat and they would have no chance of saving lives. Unlike soldiers in a battle they were completely helpless and could not do anything to help themselves and this complete helplessness was what caused them to break. A research showed that the soldiers who handled the stress and helplessness best and did not break down were not the especially tough guys but those who had religious faith. Not only could they believe/trust that the god they believed in would protect them but they could also better than the others accept they if their ship was torpedoed and they drowned when it sank it would be not be meaningless but part of some greater divine scheme.
I think that this shows that accepting what happens to us and not praying to God is not psychologically healthy. That it is a sign of a more developed maturity is possible. Atheists are often intelligent people who have al sorts of rational and logical reasons for rejecting the idea of an almighty God. But lots of things – good and bad - that happen in our lives cannot really be explained logically and rationally and we can all end up in situations in which we are helpless and all we can do it to pray. I cannot prove it but I am sure that there are situations when even the most inveterate, God-denying atheist pray.
So if not praying to God for help is sign of superior maturity I certainly am happy that I am normally immature so I even in the most impossible situation can keep up just a little hope of a good outcome.
I think that it is strange that we live in a time when believing in God in many places and societies it frowned upon and science and rationality is seen as the answer to everything but at the same time it is a time when things because of the technological development and other reasons change so fast that more and more people feel rootless and insecure. They experience that their rationality and education and all they believed would give them good lives are just not enough in a still more complicated world.
We are supposed to have an opinion about everything and to understand everything and to make rational and responsible decisions in all kinds of complicated matters that we in reality have no way of fully understanding so that we always can estimate the wider consequences of our decisions and actions.
Personally I find it very reassuring to know that there is an almighty God who - hopefully – laughs of all the the people who think that they know and can explain everything in a rational way. I have faith in this almighty God and am sure that he knows what is best for me.
I am not so sure that being able to accept what happens to us is more mature and psychologically healthier than praying to God for help and support.
When USA during WW I transported thousands of soldiers to Europe a remarkably big number of these soldiers had to be returned to USA without getting into battle. The suffered from nervous breakdowns caused by the fearful stress they had experienced when knowing that any moment the ship that transported them could be hit by a torpedo from a German U-boat and they would have no chance of saving lives. Unlike soldiers in a battle they were completely helpless and could not do anything to help themselves and this complete helplessness was what caused them to break. A research showed that the soldiers who handled the stress and helplessness best and did not break down were not the especially tough guys but those who had religious faith. Not only could they believe/trust that the god they believed in would protect them but they could also better than the others accept they if their ship was torpedoed and they drowned when it sank it would be not be meaningless but part of some greater divine scheme.
I think that this shows that accepting what happens to us and not praying to God is not psychologically healthy. That it is a sign of a more developed maturity is possible. Atheists are often intelligent people who have al sorts of rational and logical reasons for rejecting the idea of an almighty God. But lots of things – good and bad - that happen in our lives cannot really be explained logically and rationally and we can all end up in situations in which we are helpless and all we can do it to pray. I cannot prove it but I am sure that there are situations when even the most inveterate, God-denying atheist pray.
So if not praying to God for help is sign of superior maturity I certainly am happy that I am normally immature so I even in the most impossible situation can keep up just a little hope of a good outcome.
I think that it is strange that we live in a time when believing in God in many places and societies it frowned upon and science and rationality is seen as the answer to everything but at the same time it is a time when things because of the technological development and other reasons change so fast that more and more people feel rootless and insecure. They experience that their rationality and education and all they believed would give them good lives are just not enough in a still more complicated world.
We are supposed to have an opinion about everything and to understand everything and to make rational and responsible decisions in all kinds of complicated matters that we in reality have no way of fully understanding so that we always can estimate the wider consequences of our decisions and actions.
Personally I find it very reassuring to know that there is an almighty God who - hopefully – laughs of all the the people who think that they know and can explain everything in a rational way. I have faith in this almighty God and am sure that he knows what is best for me.
twistermind · 51-55, F
@karinaal: Interesting, the reasearch you mention.
Not sure if I'm an atheist now. Lately, I was comparing how people who believe in god lived their lives and face to difficulties with an extra strength I can't find in myself.
Suddenly, I discovered myself some weeks ago praying. It was more my desperation, my need to have an extra strength than faith. I lost it many years ago. So, yes...I was there praying like a kid when crying and asking for something to their parents.
I know it's very human. A long the History, this is what explain trascendental beliefs. To avoid loliness. Because, the man feels alone
I always was wondered by the fact that some believers go beyond that. They accept with generosity and embrace what life offers them. Some call it, resignation, Psychology call it resilience.
I called it madurity. Perhaps, I wasn't very luckily using this term.
Not sure if I'm an atheist now. Lately, I was comparing how people who believe in god lived their lives and face to difficulties with an extra strength I can't find in myself.
Suddenly, I discovered myself some weeks ago praying. It was more my desperation, my need to have an extra strength than faith. I lost it many years ago. So, yes...I was there praying like a kid when crying and asking for something to their parents.
I know it's very human. A long the History, this is what explain trascendental beliefs. To avoid loliness. Because, the man feels alone
I always was wondered by the fact that some believers go beyond that. They accept with generosity and embrace what life offers them. Some call it, resignation, Psychology call it resilience.
I called it madurity. Perhaps, I wasn't very luckily using this term.
karinaal · 70-79, F
To me it does not sound as if you are an atheist or anything near to that.
Nor does it sound as if you have lost your faith.
To me it sounds as if you have just found out that without doubt there cannot really be any faith just as there without faith can be no doubt.
It is a matter of believing without having scientific proof. If I had the scientific proof I would not believe but know.
It is easy to make fun of faith; Darwin has explained about evolution, every doctor can tell you that Jesus could not die on the cross and then several days later stand up from the grave and walk around and today every schoolkid can tell you that Mary could not possibly have been a virgin.
So we cannot believe in what the Bible tells us but it does not change that in the Christian creed we Christians all claim to believe in the almighty God who created heaven and earth.
I have no problems with believing that an almighty God who created heaven and earth was also perfectly capable of arranging the sweet little Christmas story with Mary becoming pregnant without getting assistance from a man. It is against logic, against all that science can explain and so what?
Does it really matter how the almighty God did the things that seem irrational and that science cannot explain or is it not just an incredible human naivety and vanity to believe that we should be able to understand and explain how an almighty God did whatever he did?
Many people have no problems with believing in the most obscure superstitions or crazy conspiracy theories and just as crazy and unreliable “news stories” found on the darkest parts of the Internet and then it does not matter that there is no ratio behind it and no scientific or other proof at all.
It seems as if we all need something to believe in, to trust in and to cling on to when we are in those deep crises when there is no true or false, no correct answer and no ratio but only helplessness and vulnerability.
This need for something to believe in and trust and also rely on as a kind of parental authority is perhaps sign of humanity's inherent and inescapable immaturity and childishness. If so it would explain why it comes so easy for us in moments of despair to pray to a heavenly paternal authority. At least I find it comforting and reassuring to do so and even those who do not believe in any almighty divine power must admit that mentally and emotionally this is healthy, soothing and calming.
Nor does it sound as if you have lost your faith.
To me it sounds as if you have just found out that without doubt there cannot really be any faith just as there without faith can be no doubt.
It is a matter of believing without having scientific proof. If I had the scientific proof I would not believe but know.
It is easy to make fun of faith; Darwin has explained about evolution, every doctor can tell you that Jesus could not die on the cross and then several days later stand up from the grave and walk around and today every schoolkid can tell you that Mary could not possibly have been a virgin.
So we cannot believe in what the Bible tells us but it does not change that in the Christian creed we Christians all claim to believe in the almighty God who created heaven and earth.
I have no problems with believing that an almighty God who created heaven and earth was also perfectly capable of arranging the sweet little Christmas story with Mary becoming pregnant without getting assistance from a man. It is against logic, against all that science can explain and so what?
Does it really matter how the almighty God did the things that seem irrational and that science cannot explain or is it not just an incredible human naivety and vanity to believe that we should be able to understand and explain how an almighty God did whatever he did?
Many people have no problems with believing in the most obscure superstitions or crazy conspiracy theories and just as crazy and unreliable “news stories” found on the darkest parts of the Internet and then it does not matter that there is no ratio behind it and no scientific or other proof at all.
It seems as if we all need something to believe in, to trust in and to cling on to when we are in those deep crises when there is no true or false, no correct answer and no ratio but only helplessness and vulnerability.
This need for something to believe in and trust and also rely on as a kind of parental authority is perhaps sign of humanity's inherent and inescapable immaturity and childishness. If so it would explain why it comes so easy for us in moments of despair to pray to a heavenly paternal authority. At least I find it comforting and reassuring to do so and even those who do not believe in any almighty divine power must admit that mentally and emotionally this is healthy, soothing and calming.
twistermind · 51-55, F