Why are people who have been double jabbed still going to hospital?

@Rolexeo This isn't entirely true. It's true that the majority of Covid deaths in the UK are people who have received at least one shot. However, the numbers are super low, and the fact that the majority of our population is vaccinated, we'd [i]expect[/i] the vaccinated to make up the majority when the numbers are so low.

If you have a population where 100% of people are vaccinated, then 100% of people who die with Covid are vaccinated. Does that mean the vaccine was ineffective? Of course not.

Look at the hospitalisations, look at the death rate. In December/January it was averaging 1,000 people a day dead. Now you can count that number on your hands. This is expressly due to the vaccine program.

ETA: to further put it into perspective. A fully vaccinated 80 year old is at the same risk as an unvaccinated 50 year old. Age is a huge factor, which is why many people still dying with Covid are the elderly.

Again, what we see happening in the UK is what we'd expect to see when a vaccine has less than 100% effectiveness.

@SW-User A. There's probably more people that are unvaccinated. B. The vaccine is meant to drastically decrease the likliehood of death.

As for 1k deaths per day they're attributing non-covid deaths to covid. Which is why the flu deaths for this year have decreased to under 2k. The reason given is the masks, but even if the flu is weaker than covid and the masks are more effective at preventing it from spreading the logic still wouldn't add up. Why? Because nobody is following the rules with regards to wearing masks strictly enough to warrant such a thing. The left has admitted as much by complaining about people not wearing the masks as much as they should. Overall deaths per year have remained consistent. Which wouldn't be possible if this really were a pandemic that has killed over half a million Americans alone.

@Rolexeo [quote]There's probably more people that are unvaccinated[/quote] False. Over 55% of the UK is vaccinated.

[quote] they're attributing non-covid deaths to covid.[/quote] Nope. Deaths are counted in two ways. The government count any death after 28 days of a positive test as a "Covid death".

But the ONS only count deaths that include Covid as a contributing factor on the death certificate. When you compare the two, we've actually undercounted.

[quote]Overall deaths per year have remained consistent.[/quote] Again, wrong. There were approx. 80,000 more deaths in 2020 than were forecast based on the previous 5 years.

@SW-User I meant in the world, over 55% is still close to half though so my point still stands about the vaccines being pointless.

Which is fallacious as fuck, how do you not see that?

Also fallacious. You could die in a car accident and they'll put covid as a contributing factor.

Not wrong, as I was saying

@Rolexeo You've changed topic. The OP was regarding the UK.

Vaccines have been super effective. Every country with a successful vaccine program are reporting less deaths and less hospitalisations. This is really easy to see.

If you're looking at the rates across there world, where most 3rd world developing countries don't have a vaccine program and which accounts for billions of people, of course the data will change. But that doesn't mean the vaccine is less effective. Again, we have to look at countries with successful vaccine programs.

[quote]You could die in a car accident and they'll put covid as a contributing factor.[/quote]

That's not always true. I mean, which country are you even referring to now, as each country has their own methods when counting Covid deaths. I've already given you an example of how this isn't true in the UK.

@SW-User No I haven't, I thought we were talking about world. You said 55% in the UK have been vaccinated, I told you that proves my point, that's about half, about half of the covid deaths come from those that are vaccinated.

What you just said proves the opposite.

Covid isn't even the leading disease for deaths in most third world countries right now.

But you didn't. I went over how your logic was flawed. I also gave proof that the world death rate per year has been pretty consistent before and during covid. Which proves 2 things. Non-covid deaths are largely being attributed to covid, and it's not the pandemic it's being made out to be. If it was there should be a large increase in deaths, yet there isn't.

@Rolexeo [quote]that's about half, about half of the covid deaths come from those that are vaccinated. [/quote] You've misunderstood that %. 55% of the total UK populace - but under 16's are not required to vaccinate. That means 70% of adults are fully vaccinated, and 90% have had their first jab.

The majority of covid deaths in the UK are of fully vaccinated people. That's what you'd expect to see when the % majority of the adult populace is vaccinated. But the important part is that cases, hospitalisations and deaths are down.

[quote]Covid isn't even the leading disease for deaths in most third world countries right now.[/quote] That's literally impossible to say right now. Most countries across Asia and Africa do not have the infrastructure to report on data like covid outbreaks or excess deaths. In Europe and America, the excess deaths are very high, and we'd expect better data from these areas of the world as our infrastructure for collecting such data is better funded.

Europe for instance, where most countries are capable of outputting accurate data on deaths, outbreaks, hospitalisations etc. we see huge excess death numbers (over 1 mil for the entire continent).

[quote]I went over how your logic was flawed.[/quote] You didn't address it at all. Every country accounts for covid deaths differently. In the UK, we do not account for road traffic incidents in our figures. The ONS account only for deaths where covid is on the death certificate and the total deaths are compared against government figures, where we find we under-account for covid deaths.

This is different from other EU countries, and different again from the USA. Again, being specific helps.

@SW-User That doesn't help your case at all. Covid still kills a very small percentage of each age group. Under 1% if under 70, less than 6% if 70+, but everything kills you then. It's not really helping at all.

Why do you say that?

I did though, you mentioned 2 methods and I said how they were flawed methods. You've yet to say how I'm wrong.

You're wrong regardless of how it was measured because yearly world deaths don't reflect what covid deaths are supposed to show. I don't have to debunk your methodology, the numbers alone show it's wrong.

@Rolexeo [quote]It's not really helping at all.[/quote] But dude, it is helping. The countries with successful vaccine rollouts are seeing less cases, less hospitalisations and less deaths. That's empirically true. Vaccines aren't meant to stop Covid dead, it's meant to reduce symptoms and reduce pressure on hospitals. People are still going to die, but far fewer people.

[quote]You've yet to say how I'm wrong.[/quote] Just saying "Oh, well that's flawed" doesn't give me anything to go off. In my opinion, counting death certificates where Covid has been noted as at least a contributing factor by a Dr, then comparing that data with all deaths of people who tested positive within 28 days is fairly accurate - you can then be certain your data doesn't include car accidents, freak accidents, homicides etc. Can you suggest a better way of counting just deaths due to Covid? It's not easy.

[quote]yearly world deaths don't reflect what covid deaths are supposed to show. [/quote] Again, because you're looking at random "world death" figures and not addressing what I said before. Continents like Africa and Asia include many countries incapable of recording the data you need to report on outbreaks, excess deaths, hospitalisations etc. so simply looking at random totals for the world and saying "yeah, that'll do" isn't accurate because there are huge gaps missing. Do you even have a source for the numbers you provided before (i.e. where do they get the raw data)?

If we look at areas of the world capable of maintaining better and more robust data sets (i.e. western Europe or America) you can see the real impact of Covid. Millions of excess deaths above what you'd expect from the previous 5 years. This isn't a conspiracy - it's a tragedy.

@SW-User The data isn't showing that, if it doesn't prevent people from dying it's pointless.

But I didn't do that, I went into detail as to why those methods are flawed and that it's still irrelevant because world deaths don't reflect it.

You saying they're incapable of accurately recording the data is a conspiracy in and of itself, you're just making claims without proof.

Also it's still irrelevant. The documented numbers don't match the world yearly deaths either so what are you on about?

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/death-rate

@Rolexeo [b]Uh oh[/b] someone doesn't read their sources. What does it say at the top of your link for "World Death Rate"? I'll help;

[quote]NOTE: All 2020 and later data are UN projections and [b]DO NOT[/b] include any impacts of the COVID-19 virus.[/quote]

So you're looking at data sets that are [i][b]projections[/b][/i] from 2019 (i.e. pre-covid), not actual data. That's why you've been so confused.


[quote]if it doesn't prevent people from dying it's pointless[/quote] Vaccines are demonstrably preventing deaths. Take the UK as an example - we've had a super successful vaccine rollout. We're currently experiencing a "peak" i.e. an increase in cases. We're carrying out a similar number of tests per day, and finding cases falling quicker, less hospitalizations, and most importantly less deaths. During the same spike in December/January, we were peaking 1,200 dead per day. Now, we're sitting around 14. That's the vaccine rollout saving lives and preventing deaths.


[quote]I went into detail as to why those methods are flawed[/quote] You haven't, but I'm happy to hear it - go on, lay it out. Explain why the UK method is flawed, and what a better method might look like.

[quote]you're just making claims without proof.[/quote] It is very well understood that 3rd world countries suffer from inadequate health systems, limited testing capacity and poor reporting systems.Here's a link explaining the difficulties collecting data in Africa and Asia: https://www.who.int/data/stories/the-true-death-toll-of-covid-19-estimating-global-excess-mortality

The person here making claims without proof, Rolexo, is you. Providing world death figures which expressly say they're projections that do not include the impact of Covid. Yikes.

@Rolexeo


[quote]yeah, seems legit[/quote] Hey, it's your source, not mine.

[quote]It still doesn't prove you right.[/quote] No. But it proves you totally wrong. The whole foundation of your argument was "there aren't excess deaths so nothing you say can be true". But the first thing your source says is "2020 and 2021 are projections, so don't include Covid data". You don't have any data to back up your claim. Whereas...

[quote]Source?[/quote] Easy. Go here: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

1. Following link
2. Scroll down to "Daily deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate", which will ensure we exclude car accidents, natural causes etc.
3. Select "Data"
4. Scroll down to January 2021

You'll see daily deaths were topping 1,400. Now scroll back up to July, after we've had a huge vaccine rollout. Now tell me what the daily figures are during the current peak in July? Vaccines save lives, dude.

[quote] These methods are laughable. [/quote] Which is why we don't count car accidents in the UK! Jesus dude, I don't think you've read a single thing I've said. Covid won't be on your death certificate if you die as a result of a car accident, so the ONS won't count it in their covid numbers. Ergo, the system works.

Here, read this so you finally understand. Car accidents aren't counted: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics?:uri=aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics

I don't know where you live, maybe in the states, but most countries are now working off death certificates. Which means your "flaw" doesn't exist. You're getting angry over nothing.

@SW-User I like how you never quote the whole of what I say, just one sentence taken out of context, love it.

No it doesn't. You'd have to first establish that you're right by providing the stats.

"Vaccines save lives dude"? Stop with the smug snarkyness, holy shit. Nobody said they don't, we're saying this one doesn't.

So nobody is dying of the delta variant, got it.

That's clearly not true though, tons of evidence has shown that isn't the case, especially the fact that flu deaths are under 2k for this year, a point which you've completely ignored.

Angry?

Yeah, I think we're done here, you're not here to debate honestly