Black Lives Matter is a RACIST movement. Racism goes both ways!
Just saying.
56-60, M
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hartfire · 61-69
I disagree with the first statement.
Black Lives Matter is first about achieving equal treatment for African Americans by police. The USA's own government statistics show that for a very long time, Black Africans have consistently been targeted, violated and murdered by police without legal justification or provocation - and the police have gotten away with it in the courts.
Working out the relative statistics requires bearing in mind that 13% of Americans descent from African ancestors.
If there was no racism, one would expect to see that police violations of law against African Americans represented close to 13% of the total.
The reality is close to 50%; thus African Americans are three times more likely to be murdered by police than Americans of European descent.
Secondly, if there were no racism, one could expect to find that 13% of workers in every type of job are African Americans. Instead, we find that there African Americans are far fewer in jobs requiring higher education and responsibility, such as professors, high court judges, medical specialists, scientists and high-level politicians. Of course they are some, but just not in proportionally equal numbers. Since there is no lack of ability, the reasons must stem from lack of opportunities, and a large part of this is likely to be due to low socio-ecomonic status in childhood which makes it far harder to get a good start. This is where racism at a systemic level starts and is perpetuated - and it will continue until money is invested in better education and opportunities.
On your second statement. Racism can cut both ways. It is not unusual for an oppressed group to feel profound hatred towards their oppressors.
Any intelligent person would realise that that on its own would be a good reason to develop systems designed to ensure that racist crimes are punished and that other forms of unequal treatment cannot occur.
I hope there are black activists on this site who will respond to the question.
Clearly there are many people who either don't understand the issues and realities, or haven't yet read the US government's own crime statistics.
Black Lives Matter is first about achieving equal treatment for African Americans by police. The USA's own government statistics show that for a very long time, Black Africans have consistently been targeted, violated and murdered by police without legal justification or provocation - and the police have gotten away with it in the courts.
Working out the relative statistics requires bearing in mind that 13% of Americans descent from African ancestors.
If there was no racism, one would expect to see that police violations of law against African Americans represented close to 13% of the total.
The reality is close to 50%; thus African Americans are three times more likely to be murdered by police than Americans of European descent.
Secondly, if there were no racism, one could expect to find that 13% of workers in every type of job are African Americans. Instead, we find that there African Americans are far fewer in jobs requiring higher education and responsibility, such as professors, high court judges, medical specialists, scientists and high-level politicians. Of course they are some, but just not in proportionally equal numbers. Since there is no lack of ability, the reasons must stem from lack of opportunities, and a large part of this is likely to be due to low socio-ecomonic status in childhood which makes it far harder to get a good start. This is where racism at a systemic level starts and is perpetuated - and it will continue until money is invested in better education and opportunities.
On your second statement. Racism can cut both ways. It is not unusual for an oppressed group to feel profound hatred towards their oppressors.
Any intelligent person would realise that that on its own would be a good reason to develop systems designed to ensure that racist crimes are punished and that other forms of unequal treatment cannot occur.
I hope there are black activists on this site who will respond to the question.
Clearly there are many people who either don't understand the issues and realities, or haven't yet read the US government's own crime statistics.
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hartfire · 61-69
@RodneyTrotter I agree that the UK has a very different history and set of social circumstances. It's forty years since I've lived there, I imagine things have changed hugely in that time.
I remember house-sharing with a social worker whose job was managing a youth recreation room on a housing estate in Islington, London. There was only one room, but there were three different racial groups who hated each other and were at risk of becoming gangs of delinquents - kids from Middle Eastern and Pakistani, families, Caribbean Islander families, and Anglo-Saxon-Celtic families. The Anglos were openly neo-Nazi white supremacists and made no bones about their hatred and willingness to do harm to the kids whom they regarded as not belonging.
For my flatmate and friend, it was an incredibly dangerous job.
She had to divide the use of the room into two days per week for each group and one day closed.
Even then, she was constantly having to work on the resolution of disputes before they turned violent.
I remember house-sharing with a social worker whose job was managing a youth recreation room on a housing estate in Islington, London. There was only one room, but there were three different racial groups who hated each other and were at risk of becoming gangs of delinquents - kids from Middle Eastern and Pakistani, families, Caribbean Islander families, and Anglo-Saxon-Celtic families. The Anglos were openly neo-Nazi white supremacists and made no bones about their hatred and willingness to do harm to the kids whom they regarded as not belonging.
For my flatmate and friend, it was an incredibly dangerous job.
She had to divide the use of the room into two days per week for each group and one day closed.
Even then, she was constantly having to work on the resolution of disputes before they turned violent.
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hartfire · 61-69
@kodiac Yes - I understand that African Americans do record higher levels of crime. Although, I suspect that if you did a further analysis based on the socio-economic background and conditions of convicted criminals, we would discover that the vast majority come from extremely poor, disadvantages and high pressure environments.
But that's not the point I was making. The point I was making was about police crimes against African Americans. If there were no racism, then the proportion of crimes (unprovoked violence and murder) against people with dark pigmentation would not be so disproportionately high - three times higher.
But that's not the point I was making. The point I was making was about police crimes against African Americans. If there were no racism, then the proportion of crimes (unprovoked violence and murder) against people with dark pigmentation would not be so disproportionately high - three times higher.
hartfire · 61-69
@RodneyTrotter Yes. :(
bijouxbroussard · F
@hartfire That’s correct. Where there is poverty there tends to be more crime. And there tends to be poverty because of systemic racism and past disenfranchisement going back generations. That is fact.
hartfire · 61-69
@bijouxbroussard I agree with you Bijoux. I feel so distressed seeing so much ignorance in some people's attitudes here.
I would like somehow to get the message across, but feel like I'm failing.
I know some people just don't want to admit that there is racism because if one is part of a racist group it brings on a sense of shame - one that is acutely uncomfortable and very difficult to handle. People go into denial to avoid feeling this feeling.
But in exactly the same way that an alcoholic must acknowledge the addiction before being able to do an inventory of his (or her) offences while drunk - our societies need to understand and see the enormity of racist behaviours and systems before we can begin to reform them.
Specific instances and processes have to be spelled out and shown. That's what made the recent death of George Floyd so compelling. It was shown and it went viral so everyone could see and hear it. No mistakes. No hiding from the reality.
Then the examples of all the others killed in similar circumstances comes out - and the long list of names written on the road - so long you need the height of a skyscraper or a helicopter to read it.
If this isn't working to convince the deniers, then we need even more graphic telling and showing of every case.
To Kill a Mockingbird opened the eyes of America.
We need at least twenty films detailing all the different kinds of racist crimes, showing the structural and systemic nature of it close-up, showing the emotions and the trauma.
People need to be reached where their hearts and humanity are.
It is not okay for any minority group to be disadvantaged and then repeatedly blamed for the consequences of the disadvantage and the intergenerational trauma.
I would like somehow to get the message across, but feel like I'm failing.
I know some people just don't want to admit that there is racism because if one is part of a racist group it brings on a sense of shame - one that is acutely uncomfortable and very difficult to handle. People go into denial to avoid feeling this feeling.
But in exactly the same way that an alcoholic must acknowledge the addiction before being able to do an inventory of his (or her) offences while drunk - our societies need to understand and see the enormity of racist behaviours and systems before we can begin to reform them.
Specific instances and processes have to be spelled out and shown. That's what made the recent death of George Floyd so compelling. It was shown and it went viral so everyone could see and hear it. No mistakes. No hiding from the reality.
Then the examples of all the others killed in similar circumstances comes out - and the long list of names written on the road - so long you need the height of a skyscraper or a helicopter to read it.
If this isn't working to convince the deniers, then we need even more graphic telling and showing of every case.
To Kill a Mockingbird opened the eyes of America.
We need at least twenty films detailing all the different kinds of racist crimes, showing the structural and systemic nature of it close-up, showing the emotions and the trauma.
People need to be reached where their hearts and humanity are.
It is not okay for any minority group to be disadvantaged and then repeatedly blamed for the consequences of the disadvantage and the intergenerational trauma.
@hartfire Yes, there are a lot of black victims of police violence. Which is terrible and needs to stop. Police have done some horrible things and they need to be held accountable.
But...Harassing and threatening whites is not the way to fix racism. Saying that until black lives matter, no lives matter is not the way. If this was JUST about police brutality then the slogan should have been "All Lives Matter" not "Black Lives Matter." The movement became about race and black people being racist against others when they chose to make police brutality specifically abut blacks and not about police brutality.
Finally with regards to your reasonings about poverty leading to the higher crime rate statistics for those of African descent.
Blacks make up 13 percent of the U.S. population but commit over 50% of all homicides. While it is true that blacks also make up about 40% of all homicide victims, your statement about poverty being a contributing factor is not necessarily true. While a higher percentage of the African American population lives in poverty (a total of 8.9 million) there are substantially more whites experiencing poverty (15.77 million) than blacks.
Of the 38.1 million U.S. citizens who live below the poverty income level over 40% are white. Only 20% are black. That means, that if we justify poverty as a reason for committing a crime, we still have a smaller portion of the population committing over 50% of all homicides in the U.S. If poverty is the primary contributing factor why are 20% of those experiencing poverty committing over 50% of the homicides? Poverty in and of itself is not a genuine reason for those numbers.
What may be a contributing factor is where they are living in poverty. Not all states in the U.S. provide the same type and level of financial assistance to people living in poverty.
7.6 percent of all Asian Americans living in the U.S. are below the poverty limit also, and the total Asian population represents only 5.6 percent of the U.S. population BUT Asian Americans with a similar poverty rate to African Americans represent 7.2 % of bachelors degrees awarded in 2018. While Africans with their much larger population only represented 10.2% of bachelor degree graduates in 2018. If poverty were the primary factor affecting educational opportunities, we'd be seeing a lot less Asians graduating from college in the U.S. just because there are 3 times as many blacks in the U.S. as there are Asians. If discrepancies in education were due to racism (Whites discriminating against non-whites) then Asians would be facing the same problems as blacks with proportionally lower graduation rates. As it stands, even with federal assistance, more than 40% of African Americans who start a college degree program drop out.
Yes, our poor communities need help but the statistics don't support systemic racism
across the U.S. as being the reason for the inequalities between blacks and whites in our society unless that systemic racism is specifically targeting black and no other minority races.
But...Harassing and threatening whites is not the way to fix racism. Saying that until black lives matter, no lives matter is not the way. If this was JUST about police brutality then the slogan should have been "All Lives Matter" not "Black Lives Matter." The movement became about race and black people being racist against others when they chose to make police brutality specifically abut blacks and not about police brutality.
Finally with regards to your reasonings about poverty leading to the higher crime rate statistics for those of African descent.
Blacks make up 13 percent of the U.S. population but commit over 50% of all homicides. While it is true that blacks also make up about 40% of all homicide victims, your statement about poverty being a contributing factor is not necessarily true. While a higher percentage of the African American population lives in poverty (a total of 8.9 million) there are substantially more whites experiencing poverty (15.77 million) than blacks.
Of the 38.1 million U.S. citizens who live below the poverty income level over 40% are white. Only 20% are black. That means, that if we justify poverty as a reason for committing a crime, we still have a smaller portion of the population committing over 50% of all homicides in the U.S. If poverty is the primary contributing factor why are 20% of those experiencing poverty committing over 50% of the homicides? Poverty in and of itself is not a genuine reason for those numbers.
What may be a contributing factor is where they are living in poverty. Not all states in the U.S. provide the same type and level of financial assistance to people living in poverty.
7.6 percent of all Asian Americans living in the U.S. are below the poverty limit also, and the total Asian population represents only 5.6 percent of the U.S. population BUT Asian Americans with a similar poverty rate to African Americans represent 7.2 % of bachelors degrees awarded in 2018. While Africans with their much larger population only represented 10.2% of bachelor degree graduates in 2018. If poverty were the primary factor affecting educational opportunities, we'd be seeing a lot less Asians graduating from college in the U.S. just because there are 3 times as many blacks in the U.S. as there are Asians. If discrepancies in education were due to racism (Whites discriminating against non-whites) then Asians would be facing the same problems as blacks with proportionally lower graduation rates. As it stands, even with federal assistance, more than 40% of African Americans who start a college degree program drop out.
Yes, our poor communities need help but the statistics don't support systemic racism
across the U.S. as being the reason for the inequalities between blacks and whites in our society unless that systemic racism is specifically targeting black and no other minority races.