Can you make a sound, MORAL/ETHICAL argument for NOT being Vegan?

@LilithoftheTrees

Well i think there are two different arenas there.
In many developed nations it is absolutely a practically possible (of not easy) practice.
But there are many developing nations or poorly off people in developed nations for whom it is not practical. But the idea of veganism is not that one must stop consuming animal products at all costs but that one must stop if one can realistically stop.

@Pikachu I think if the treatment of animals is ethical it’s ok. Think of the job losses across the world if there was no meat industry. Also you have to consider the cultural significance meat has in many cultures. I can see many people fighting about their cultural practices being denied. I just don’t see it being sustainable. Or practical. What about all the animal related products besides food? What will become of those industries?

@LilithoftheTrees

[quote]I think if the treatments of animals is ethical it’s ok.[/quote]

Is taking an animal's life ethical as long as you didn't torture them during life?
Imagine you bred a human for the purpose of consuming them and you gave them a good life and then killed them relatively painlessly at 18 years of age.
Well that's better than keeping them in a 3x5 cage for their whole life and then shoving them in a gas chamber but it's still not great, morally speaking.

[quote]Think of the job losses across the world if there was no meat industry[/quote]

There must always be loss in a paradigm change but is that sufficient reason to never make that change? Is it acceptable to continue a model that perpetuates suffering on the basis that it will be challenging to make a change?

@Pikachu I think if they are treated humanely then yes it’s ok. That doesn’t mean I like it morally but it’s the way it is. How would one practically deal with it? Small things like pet cats, what would they eat? Animals at rescue centres? What would be a leather replacement? What about glycerin and medications? Skin grafts. Etc etc. the world simply is at ready at this stage. Perhaps if you live in a first world country sipping designer coffee all day it’s a a grand ideal to follow. I doubt very much tribes in Africa who depend on their cattle for survival, for example would agree.

@LilithoftheTrees

So i think most of your objections can be alleviated with the reminder of what veganism actually is: A reduction of harm where possible.

If you're an African who needs to produce and consume cattle to survive then you are under no moral obligation to be vegan.
If you need medicine that comes from an animal then you are under no moral obligation to refuse it.

But it seems to me that a major flaw in your objection is that you seem to be arguing for an all or nothing scenario when that need not be the case. As if the options are that everyone be vegan or that veganism is not a practical option.
And even that fails to address the real debate which was (to remind you) "Can you make an ethical argument against the idea that anyone [i][u]who has the means [/u][/i]to be vegan SHOULD be vegan?"

[quote] Small things like pet cats, what would they eat?[/quote]

That's an issue that i've thought a little bit about and i don't have a good answer for it.
Cats are obligate carnivores, they can't NOT eat meat and be healthy.
So does that mean that to be a vegan we should not have cats as pets? I think probably yes but then where does that leave all the cats kicking around? Is it a net harm or a net good if we stop keeping cats as pets?

@Pikachu I have no objection to the idea of less harm. I just don’t know how it’s achievable on a practical level.

@LilithoftheTrees

[quote] I just don’t know how it’s achievable on a practical level.[/quote]

Well again, this is not an all or nothing proposition.
So on what level is it not practically achievable?

@Pikachu one example, what will happen to the thousands of people who would loose their jobs? What about water usage worldwide? Some fruits nuts and vegetable use a lot of water. What about the carbon footprint of insecticides used in farming? Most of all…how would you convince the world?

@LilithoftheTrees

[quote]hat will happen to the thousands of people who would loose their jobs?[/quote]

What will happen to the thousands of people who would lose their jobs as we move over to green energy?
Is short term job loss a sufficient reason to indefinitely put off a morally necessary change?

[quote]Some fruits nuts and vegetable use a lot of water. What about the carbon footprint of insecticides used in farming?[/quote]

The vast majority of plant farming goes toward feeding livestock which we then kill and consume.
Moving to a plant-based diet results in a net reduction of resources going towards producing plant products.

[quote]Most of all…how would you convince the world?
[/quote]

By convincing them that it is morally indefensible to continue to cause animals to suffer in any scenario where that suffering is not unavoidable.

@Pikachu ok fair enough. Practical solutions should be implemented though. What about killing rats?

@LilithoftheTrees

I agree that only with practical options can anyone move toward veganism.
As for killing rats, i guess that falls under the net reduction in harm. If you need to kill rats in order to protect your crop then that's what you have to do, practically speaking. In the same way that you're justified in protecting your sheep by shooting a wolf that is preying upon them.

@Pikachu Agreed. Thing is, going vegan is fine and it will benefit the planet however there are many crops that aren’t water friendly or encourage deforestation. I think it would have to be very carefully implemented. That’s going to take a lot of time.

@LilithoftheTrees

It will certainly take time. But it will take a lot more time if we never begin the transition.