Struggles & Identity

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A side conversation gone crazy...

I no longer call women at work, "girls." When I use images in my slide presentations I am deliberate about being sure to include women as well as men (in a team project at school one time I was chastised, berated, and verbally beaten down by a female team member when I presented my work in a "dress rehearsal" for having all white male figures on each of my slides). And I treat everyone with respect.

So, in a side conversation several of us were having I finally spoke up and said I didn't think women are being disadvantaged in the office when it comes to promotions, raises, and project assignments. One woman gave me the side-eye, another one said, "Oh please," and the 3rd one told me to stop being so "naïve?" There were 2 other guys in the group, and they just let me twist in the wind of negative comments directed my way. One had a smirk on his face and the other one just said and did nothing. The conversation continued on and I stayed but remained quiet.

Women tend to get super-emotional over being confronted with the reality of a situation that doesn't conform to their view of the world (or office).

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DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

Please, do you happen to know what their income is? If not, better to not say anything.

I've had women bosses before and even they didn't make as much as their male colleagues in different divisions.

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MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Well, you're missing the point, perhaps on purpose. I mean, no I don't know what everyone's income is... of course. But my point is there is no reason to automatically assume women are being disadvantaged because of their gender. It was just a lot of drama for some made-up reason to have drama. And I didn't deserve to be talked down to the way they did to me for expressing my opinion.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul Well it did happen to know what my boss made as well as those other division managers. The differences were legitimate.

She often talked to me off work.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Okay, well maybe that was an isolated case back in the day.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul this was only 2016. She was the only division manager that I knew about in a international corporation.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Oh... well my point is I don't think this is a real issue. I mean everyone should just be evaluated on their merit and not by gender. I don't want to be personally disadvantaged so someone else can get an advantage simply because they are a woman. It's tough enough figuring out how to deal with women... hold the door open, not hold the door open, walk on eggshells over what you can call them, get called out for calling them the wrong thing and then have them say whatever they want. It's unnecessarily complicated and cumbersome.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul You are making it out to be more complicated than it needs to be.

It's actually twice as hard to be a woman manager. And why she even talked to me on a personal basis.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Oh, I don't think so. I keep everything pretty simple. I just resent that they talked down to me and everyone else just remained silent even though I'm sure they agreed with me.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul added edit...

It's actually twice as hard to be a woman manager. And why she even talked to me on a personal basis.

There was simply to big a age difference to be anything more than friends.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Well, it sounds like you wanted to make it more than that. I don't recommend getting sexually involved with workmates.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul I'm saying totally the opposite. There was a twenty years age difference. I was that much older than her.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Well, if she was your manager, that would just get sticky. I don't recommend it if you have career aspirations.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul Why do you insist on pushing any type of relationship? She was the boss and she came to me with her personal situation at work. Nothing more.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Just keep it at a working level. Nothing less and nothing more. Otherwise, you are asking for trouble. I know about these things.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul You obviously know nothing. Especially if you don't know even approximately what your colleagues make.

She came to me just to talk. And only over the phone. I never saw her outside of work.

Ask me how I know how much my colleagues made? I did some of their taxes outside of work.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Well, I don't have time to engage in gossip. I'm a professional and I expect everyone else to exhibit that same kind of behaviour. I don't favour drama.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul doing others taxes is not gossip!

Asking what would help others with their personal situations is not gossip.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer If that's not your job and she's your manager then it is. And, I don't take kindly to it, mister. And just so you know, I treat everyone, regardless of gender with empathy, respect, and dignity.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul that was my colleagues in those other situations.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Oh... well it still creates encumbrances which you are better off leaving alone. Encourage them to contact a barrister for legal related issues... a solicitor for tax related matters.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul You are wrong on this. Your empathy as well is lacking. And why my boss came to me. She knew about how I got along with my own colleagues.

That's a real bosses job to know about.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer You don't understand the business world. You are trying to be friends when you should be colleagues. There is a difference, you know. You need to learn that post-haste... before it is too late. You are going down a dark path.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul No you simply don't want get personal in any way.

A boss must know how their employees get along. And if they don't get along, they must somehow separate them.

That is a real business situation you learn in college BTW.

I was a rover. I had to get along with everyone, even other women! Or I would have been replaced!

Think of a rover as a overrated lead for the whole team. I had to fill in for anywhere from six to twelve employees over three different sites.

Understanding and managing personal dynamics wasn't just part of the job; it was vital!

And why my boss contacted me after working hours. She was a division head. Not just any boss.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer Well, I'm as social and polite as anyone, but I don't like anyone getting too intrusive with me (or anyone for that matter) ... especially at work.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@MarkPaul then without that personal connection you can't know the personal dynamics. eg their income situation.

I may not have liked it, yet without some socializing, I nor anyone else, couldn't do without it. Such records are considered private without them telling you. And that required trust. Again more socializing.

I suspect you never babysat anyone else's kids either! 😆

Another forbidden work personal connection. 😈

I can't remember how many kids I babysat. 🤷🏻‍♂

At one point I was the janitor service at a campground for kids, as well as a food server. Everyone had to keep an eye on the two hundred kids. And if you have never done that before, think how personal cleaning the restrooms, shower stalls as well as their rooms, can get. For a whole year.

That job lead to the job, I already mentioned, which I used as a reference.

MarkPaul · 26-30, M

@DeWayfarer It would be rude to ask someone what their "income situation" is. I was berated for describing a woman at work as "flat-chested." I can only imagine what would happen if I started describing people based on their "income situation."

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