Random
Only logged in members can reply and interact with the post.
Join SimilarWorlds for FREE »

You, Creationist CANNOT provide superior explanations for the evidence over those which Evolution theory can provide. That's a challenge. Come at me.

If you think you've got the chops to debate the evidence then enter.
If you just have a vague, faith-based misunderstanding of evolution then you are going to have a bad time.

Aggressive hook aside, if you are a creationist with genuine questions and legitimately held criticisms then i will be just so happy to discuss those with you😇✌️

This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
@Sharon @newjaninev2

Without abiogenesis in place, there is no starting point for evolution to occur.

Evolutionary theory does encompass ideas and evidence regarding life’s origins (e.g., whether or not it happened near a deep-sea vent, which organic molecules came first, etc.), but this is not the central focus of evolutionary theory.

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/teach-evolution/misconceptions-about-evolution/

Darwin's monumental thesis, with natural selection at its core, was just the beginning of a long process of refinement and elaboration, which has continued unabated to the present day.

Precisely the same process will need to operate with respect to the Origin of Life problem.

Just as Darwin, in the very simplest of terms, pointed out how natural selection enabled simple life to evolve into complex life, so the recently proposed general theory of evolution [1,7] points out in simplest terms how simple, but fragile, replicating systems could have complexified into the intricate chemical systems of life.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3718341/

Evolutionary geologist and astrobiologist, Robert Hazen, assumes abiogenesis occurred. In his lecture series, Origins of Life, he says, “In this lecture series I make a basic assumption that life emerged by some kind of natural process. I propose that life arose by a sequence of events that are completely consistent with natural laws of chemistry and physics” (2005, emp. added). Evolution is an attempt to explain life through natural means, and abiogenesis must go hand-in-hand with such a theory.

Hazen further stated that in his assumption of abiogenesis, he is “like most other scientists” (2005).
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez
Without abiogenesis in place...

We know that abiogenesis occurred, and Hazen is perfectly safe in that assumption.
As we see, this is a different topic from evolution.
Evolution is not an attempt to explain life per se, and progresses independently from abiogenesis, in which it has no interest.
We know that abiogenesis happened... evolution asks how we went from that point to what we now see.
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
@newjaninev2 God appreciates your show of faith. 😉
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez It's nice that you feel entitled to speak for your god, but what specific part of my comment required a 'show of faith'?
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
@newjaninev2 Thank you for the demonstration.

We know that abiogenesis happened
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez yes, of course abiogenesis happened... otherwise there would be no life on Earth.

What point are you trying to make?
cerealguy · 26-30, M
@newjaninev2
We know that abiogenesis occurred
Can you demonstrate what you rationally think could cause this?

Because this just sounds irrational 😐
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@cerealguy Is there life on Earth?

If your answer is 'yes' then abiogenesis must have occurred.

What's irrational about that?

Of course, if your answer is 'no' then we can have a whole new discussion about irrationality 😂
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
@newjaninev2 It did? Then you should write a paper on how exactly it happened so the world scientific community will know. No one else has even come close. You could win a Nobel Prize. Or are you saying a theory is actually a fact simply because you have faith that it is so? 😉
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez are you seriously claiming that there's no life on Earth?
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez do you understand that not (yet) knowing how something happened doesn't mean that it didn't happen?
Especially when you wouldn't be here if it hadn't happened 😂

I don't know why you keep mentioning abiogenesis. The topic of this thread is evolution, and we have already established that evolution and abiogenesis are separate topics.

So, what did you want to say about evolution?
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
@newjaninev2 You realize you aren’t adding anything to the discussion. Just admit you don’t know. No one knows. Stop pretending to be a scientist when all you are doing is parroting what you think someone else knows. They don’t, however, unlike you they are the first ones to say they don’t know. 😉
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez what discussion?
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
@newjaninev2 That is precisely my point. 😉
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez So I'm not adding anything to a discussion we're not having.

We're not having a discussion because you keep dodging away from every point I make.

It'd be nice if you either acknowledged or rebutted those points
@RuyLopez

Yes, it is proposed that a god is not a necessary explanation for how life began because even our limited understanding at this time shows that natural, observed processes could conceivably produce life.
Additionally, this likely follows the same trajectory that we have observed in most natural processes which were poorly understood: They are first attributed to divine intervention and later discovered to occur due to material, physical forces.
Is the origin of life not then simply one of the few remaining gaps into which the god thereof can be wedged?

We know that evolution happened.
We know that creationism is wrong.
We know that young earth creationism is hilariously wrong.

Do you consider there to be a good argument that a god is necessary for the beginning of life?
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
@Pikachu What we know is that evolution can not explain the creation of life. At least not without a leap of faith. Otherwise evolution is great for T-shirts memes and breeding labradoodles. Maybe you shouldn’t be so cocky about what you have no idea about. 😉
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez Let's try once again.

Evolution isn't interested in abiogenesis. Evolution's sole concern is with what happened after abiogenesis.

I notice that you persistently run back to abiogenesis whenever evolution is mentioned, despite having it pointed out that they are different topics.

I assume that is because you are desperate to avoid discussing evolution.
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
@newjaninev2 You can’t keep up and apparently refused to read. Stop avoiding the core aspect to evolution versus creationism. You exclude intelligent intervention by a deity calling on evolution yet admit evolution does not explain the origin of life question. That IS the question. Now tell me what you don’t know again. 😉
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez tell me... simply and clearly.

What does abiogenesis have to do with evolution.

This might help you... evolution is change in the frequency and distribution of alleles.

if you disagree with that, please specify why.

If you would like to offer a different definition then please do so now.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez
You exclude intelligent intervention

It's simply not necessary

It explains nothing (not even itself)
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@RuyLopez
admit evolution does not explain the origin of life question

Of course it doesn't... it doesn't need to

In like vein, abiogenesis does not concern itself with evolution... they are two completely different topics .
@RuyLopez

What we know is that evolution can not explain the creation of life. At least not without a leap of faith.

Well calling it the "creation" of life rather presupposes the conclusion, yes?
But there is no leap of faith.
A leap of faith is a decision to believe without evidence. Concluding that natural processes will likely be the explanation for the origin of life (as they have been in every other area) is just deductive reasoning and a provisional conclusion based on evidence and pending future evidence.

But i did ask you a question there: Do you consider there to be a good argument that a god is necessary for the beginning of life?
cerealguy · 26-30, M
@newjaninev2
In like vein, abiogenesis does not concern itself with evolution... they are two completely different topics
Absolutely not. If evolution leads to believing in abiogenesis, they're literally related topics. That's literally how logic works. Unacceptable cop out

And if you believe abiogenesis occurred, why? Or how? Can you rationalize it as a concept? Or do you just leave it as a gap and throw your hands up?
cerealguy · 26-30, M
@Pikachu
Concluding that natural processes will likely be the explanation for the origin of life (as they have been in every other area) is just deductive reasoning and a provisional conclusion based on evidence and pending future evidence

So you're claiming here that natural processes will likely be the explanation for the origin of life

Care to go over how this would add up?

And to be clear, if you were to ask me, I'd say this is exactly where all of rationality either breaks down or doesn't. I say intelligence is the necessary answer at this point. Just to make my stance clear and help you understand the angle of logical approach entering this conversation
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@cerealguy Are you seriously saying that there is no life on Earth?