For those of y'all who reject evolution, i suspect that often you're not very familiar with it. But i could be wrong. So my question is:
Can you share with me your genuine understanding of what is meant by evolution and how it works? Don't look it up, just tell me what your understanding of the theory is.
Not interested in folks who accept evolution. Although i hope you have a decent grasp of the theory as well or you're no better off than evolution-denying creationists.
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[quote]Not interested in folks who accept evolution. Although i hope you have a decent grasp of the theory as well or you're no better off than evolution-denying creationists.[/quote]
Better off? Why would anyone, other than scientists and ideologues be better off with evolution? If deniers are wrong about evolution how will that effect their personal lives? If Bible deniers are wrong they and everyone who listens to them, once the signaling is done, will miss out on everlasting life in paradise earth without sin, sickness death or harm of any kind. No wars, no corruption, no religion, etc.
[quote]Better off? Why would anyone, other than scientists and ideologues be better off with evolution?[/quote]
You misunderstood me. What i meant by "better off" is that if one accepts evolution without knowing what it is then one is standing on the same intellectually shaky ground as the evolution-denying creationist.
And like @BritishFailedAesthetic said: Accepting evolution and believing in the redemption and salvation through Christ Jesus are not mutually exclusive propositions. In fact the vast majority of Christians seem to have no issue believing both.
@Pikachu [quote]What i meant by "better off" is that if one accepts evolution without knowing what it is then one is standing on the same intellectually shaky ground as the evolution-denying creationist.[/quote]
I agree with that, however, for them it isn't an intellectual pursuit, it's eating the red berries. Monkey see monkey do. If everyone thinks that you should believe in God then believing in God becomes very popular. Gaining popularity grants power to those who would believe in God, even if only in pretense, and thus believing in God is corrupted for political, social and financial incentive. The point is, that everything is subject to that sort of corruption. It doesn't matter if it's religion, politics, science or anything else. At that point believing in or putting ones trust (faith) in God, religion, science, politics or nationalism becomes a facade. No longer about science, God, religion, etc. but rather what you want to get out of using whatever it is to get power. To control.
So, there are those who evolution can benefit from a sincerely scientific incentive - those actually doing science - and those who have something else in mind and wish to use its popular appeal, either consciously or unconsciously, for power and control.
How, then, can evolution benefit anyone not a scientist or ideologue? Someone other than those actually doing science or using it for some ulterior motive? How can the denier benefit from educating themselves on the theory of evolution other than to improve their debating position? In a more practical sense.
[media=https://youtu.be/aFBL1YtF4hk]
ETA: Also, apostate Christianity has adopted the majority of their modern day teachings from unscriptural pagan traditions. The immortal soul, the trinity, hell, cross, rapture, Easter and Christmas to name a few. That the majority have no issues with evolution should trouble the scientist more than the true believer because of the aforementioned corruption. If you think your science is impervious to that sort of corruption, that the apostate Christians can't corrupt science you are very much mistaken. The only Christians who would accept evolution are Christians only in pretense and that should be a warning to you even if you ignore two thousand years of history.
[i]"I agree with that however, let me keep talking about my misunderstanding about what you meant". [/i] lol Nah dude. Not interested. I'm not here to preach the benefit of evolution any more than i am here to preach the benefit of heleocentrism. I do think accepting facts of over ideology is beneficial to human flourishing but that's as far as i'll go here.
If you want to discuss the matter, make a thread about it👍
If you want to carry on in this thread then i do invite you to answer the question posed on the OP.
Some folks seem to think that believing that God created life using evolution as the mechanism contradicts a belief that humanity, in its sin, falls short of the glory of God and requires the acceptance of Christ's redeeming blood in order to be saved from the just consequences of their inequity.
I don't understand how they connect those two ideas🤷♀️
@Pikachu [quote]lol well you know what they say: The only thing Christians love more than Jesus is telling other Christians they're Christing wrong.[/quote]
Heh, good one Pokémon, Atheists wouldn't know anything about that.
[quote]Maybe I have misunderstood it. Could you rephrase it or elaborate on it? What do you, the evolutionist want of me, the denier?[/quote]
I want you to describe to me your understanding of what the Theory of Evolution is and, if you like, how it works. Not to google a definition and regurgitate it but to share what you understand to be the thing you are denying.
@BibleData Right, Pascal's Wager. But if it turns out that the Muslims are right, all of the Christians will miss out, and vice versa. So the safest course is to follow [i]every[/i] religion, including the oddball ones like Scientology and the Afro-Athlican Constructive Gaathly, just in case.
@BibleData You're hilarious. Right, the goal of education is to create atheists who can be more easily indoctrinated than religious people, who are the only ones that are truly free.
@BibleData Because your entire premise is ludicrous. You asked how people are better off with evolution. They're better off knowing how reality actually works than they are believing stories written by bronze age goatherds who didn't know where the sun went at night. I'm aware that many people find meaning and fulfillment through religious practice, but it doesn't have to conflict with scientific knowledge. The people pushing things like Biblical Creationism in our schools are dangerous, not least because these beliefs tend to be associated with white supremacy, subjugation of women, American Exceptionalism, and other conservative ideology. Just spend a few minutes on the Prager U website if you want to see some of the ways our schools are indoctrinating kids. It's religious mythology separated from the actual religion.
I don't really consider Pascal's Wager. Just never have. Too many variables for such a black and white conclusion. Most people don't want anything to do with the God concept, even if it turned out real they may reject God. God gives that as an acceptable alternative. The Bible doesn't support the pagan/apostate Christian hell. The alternative to accepting Jehovah God's kingdom is already the same as the atheistic reality of death being the end. In other words, according to the Bible if you reject God you "suffer" everlasting destruction. Death forever. That's already what you think will happen.
[quote]But if it turns out that the Muslims are right, all of the Christians will miss out, and vice versa. So the safest course is to follow every religion, including the oddball ones like Scientology and the Afro-Athlican Constructive Gaathly, just in case.[/quote]
A cursory knowledge or examination of religion in general testifies as to there being no religion that is true, not even to itself. The Jews rejected and were rejected by Jehovah, Paul foretold that the majority of Christians would prefer myth and legend over true teachings. And that is exactly what happened. Not that that was profoundly prophetic in the metaphysical sense, anyone could see that as being the likely course of religion and Paul could see it beginning in his day, not to mention he was well informed on Jewish religious history.
It's up to you, not religion. Religion is a farce. If complete accurate knowledge is the litmus test to a ticket to heaven there will be no one left to enter the kingdom of God. It's about where the heart is. Not spiritual wages, misfortune, deeds, religion, predetermination or academic perfection.
@LeopoldBloom [quote]You're hilarious. Right, the goal of education is to create atheists who can be more easily indoctrinated than religious people, who are the only ones that are truly free.[/quote]
No. Get the chip off your shoulder. The goal was to take away the control of religious people, including adherents of atheism, so that they will be slaves to debt. Obedient consumers. Like what Walt Whitman and Albert Einstein said it was.
@LeopoldBloom [quote]Because your entire premise is ludicrous. You asked how people are better off with evolution. [/quote]
No, I asked other than scientists (publishing, grants, tenure) and ideologues what benefit is evolution in a practical sense. The answer is none, which is exactly the answer that is given. You could say it has led to astounding progress in technology medical science and things like that but that is arguable and those things are likely to be, in hindsight, possibly even more destructive and laughable as much of the progress of the past. Because we have had the same progress when faith was predominant, many scientists today are faithful, evolution is such an ambiguous term (except for to the ideologue) and a dozen other reasons. The same could be said of faith, in other words. Either evolution and/or faith can be interpreted as instrumental from what works without much significance because either it works or it doesn't. That doesn't really depend upon evolution of faith, except, again, to the ideologue.
Two scientist across town from one another, one with creation and the other with evolution thinks the pancreas works in a specific fashion. Evolution and creation have nothing to do with it outside of their own minds.
[quote]They're better off knowing how reality actually works than they are believing stories written by bronze age goatherds who didn't know where the sun went at night.[/quote]
Well, first of all the goatherders knew where the sun went long before science did, and secondly, no, they are not necessarily better off. That is, atheists are not better off with God and theists are not better off without. You're juxtaposing a poorly constructed, sophomoric and unnecessary ideological class struggle.
Reality may be that I drive to work every day. My life depends on it, but do I need to be currently trained in auto mechanics? Even if evolution were absolutely true and never changing in it's teaching it wouldn't necessarily benefit me to be aware of it. Your uninformed opinion just leaves you with an ideological fixation. Not of any real practical usefulness, other than to ideologues and scientists, and just because it's useful to them doesn't make it true or accurate. It just makes it religion with a priestly class, televangelists, and blind followers.
[quote] I'm aware that many people find meaning and fulfillment through religious practice, but it doesn't have to conflict with scientific knowledge.[/quote]
That's irrelevant. People find meaning and fulfillment in fairy tales and delusion, and practice of all sorts on nonsense. Scientific knowledge doesn't matter to anyone outside of science. Even with those it is constantly changing. And that change is a good thing but it doesn't make the almighty science the arbiter of truth and reality it just makes it another belief system. A religious paradigm. It is, in fact, temporal.
[quote]The people pushing things like Biblical Creationism in our schools are dangerous, not least because these beliefs tend to be associated with white supremacy, subjugation of women, American Exceptionalism, and other conservative ideology.[/quote]
I'm not going to argue with that, but I would only add that the same is true of science. It's human history, not exclusive to one or the other. You are only biased in favor of one over the other.
[quote]Just spend a few minutes on the Prager U website if you want to see some of the ways our schools are indoctrinating kids. It's religious mythology separated from the actual religion.[/quote]
Right and you want to be the only one doing that or voting. Those people are what's wrong with this country, this world, and your life. If only we could put them on trains and send them to prison camps.
So...you're dodging the question that is the subject of the thread you entered of your own free will....by accusing me of dodging the questions you deployed in an attempt to dodge the original question? lol cute.
I don't want to have to coddle you in order to have a good faith discourse but in an attempt to coax you into giving an honest answer i'll answer this once for you. Then i expect you to reciprocate by answering the question which i have now posed multiple times and upon which this thread is based.
I'm asking you as an evolution denier to give your honest understanding of what evolution theory is and on what grounds you reject it. If you are asking me to address spirituality then the analogous concept would be asking you to address science. A more appropriate request would be to challenge me on a specific aspect of spirituality, eg> Christianity. In that case i understand the general concept of Christian ideology, their concepts of salvation, the mythology surrounding their redeemer and the arguments they make for veracity of their deity. I am unconvinced by that mythology [i]but i understand what i am denying[/i]. Thus far in our conversation, you cannot make the same claim with reguard to evolution. You reject it on the basis of ideology, not understanding.
Now that i've humoured you, it's your turn to humour me:
Describe to me your understanding of what the Theory of Evolution is and, if you like, how it works. Not to google a definition and regurgitate it but to share what you understand to be the thing you are denying.
You really do have to answer me directly this time. No more deflections. No more spiteful speculations on my character or motivations. You're either worth talking to or you are not and your next response will determine your worth.
