"assigned at birth"

@Lanie78 It's rare for a baby to be born visibly intersex, sure. But things like genetic mosaicism aren't always obvious. And, more importantly, the brain is the most complex sexual organ, and who knows what all natural variation can occur there. What I'm really saying is that nature is surprising and complex and it's unwise to jump to conclusions about everybody fitting into two simple categories.

@ElwoodBlues

So for a handful of people NOT born either male or female (according to one doctor) the norms of society have to be turned upside down and the rest of us have to what exactly ..... be mind readers of what pronoun to use .... have the agenda thrown in our faces .... when is enough .... enough

@pdockal Just like for a handful of people NOT born with fully functioning bodies, we have to have ramps on all buildings used by the public, special wheel chair accessible bathrooms, braille in elevators, sign language interpreters at speeches, etc etc. Yeah, that might be what it takes to have an inclusive society. That might be what it takes to not have second class citizens. Are all these various accommodations too much for you?

@ElwoodBlues

WRONG

PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES ARE DIFFERENT and need help so they don't get hurt navigating

How do people born with both set of genitals need help walking for example ?

nice try

🤦‍♂️

@pdockal Different no. They're no different to you or I. Their disabilities doesn't define them. Please be careful how you word your replies. Society does need to be more accepting as a whole towards minority groups. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some replies here and on my posts surrounding this topic are ridiculous and unnecessary.

@ElwoodBlues so you basically bring up birth defects and try to pass that as the norm in a attempt to debunk what i said? sorry didnt work

@Torsten Read what @Lanie78 wrote.

BTW, Some XXYs appear as fully functional women, but they have:
seven times the libido of an ordinary woman,
far greater physical strength and endurance,
and often end up as world champion athletes.
There are now huge debates in the IOC and elsewhere over whether to allow them to compete with ordinary women or create separate competitions for them. They can still get pregnant, carry a baby to full term, and breastfeed.

So I'm leery of applying words like "defect" or "deformity" to world class athletes.

There are citizens of this nation that don't fit into the two main categories whether you draw the lines with X&Y chromosomes or with reproductive organs or with hormone levels. My point is that intersex is a real biological phenomenon, not some kind of hoax.

@ElwoodBlues intersex is a birth defect. Its not a hoax for sure but its not a separate gender like some try to claim and its not common like those same people claim.

As far as certain people having unfair advantages in sports, I am all for them not being able to compete. Sport should be fair at all times.

@Torsten [quote]intersex is a birth defect.[/quote] And you know this how?? Based on what authority???

Look, the world is more complex than what they taught you in elementary school. Deal with it!

@ElwoodBlues informative

@ElwoodBlues do you also try and argue that people born with extra limbs or whatver to be normal and not a birth defect?
1.7% are people born intersex. A birth defect is an abnormal condition present at birth.
Now try and tell me how intersex is not a birth defect

facts are facts. Deal with it!

@Torsten Next thing you know, someone will be telling you than if you don't have 20-20 vision you have a birth defect. Or if you can't run a 6 minute mile you have a birth defect. Or if you can't learn calculus you have a birth defect. You need to get rid of that nasty language. The world is more complex than what they taught you in elementary school.

@ElwoodBlues still doesnt change what i just said. Either try explaining to me how its not a birth defect, or just stop. Im not buying what you're saying. Intersex is clear cut a birth defect

@Torsten It's a variation, like nearsightedness. Unless you're willing to call [i]all[/i] variations "defects" then you need to explain to me why you think variations that tend to make people into world class athletes are "defects."

The natural world is far more complex than what they taught you in elementary school.

[quote] [b]The Woman Who Gave Birth Despite Most Of Her Cells Having XY Chromosomes[/b]

In 2008, doctors reported a curious case report about a woman who gave birth despite the majority of her cells having XY chromosomes, typically held by people who are biologically male.

A woman from Croatia sought medical attention when at 17-years-old she had not yet developed breasts, nor had her first period. Upon examination, the doctors didn't find much out of the ordinary, aside from the absence of these signs of female puberty...

... Though her blood was found to be 46,XY, samples taken from elsewhere around her body were not so. Cells in her skin were found to be 80 percent 46,XY and 20 percent 45,X, indicating Turner Syndrome with mosaicism...
... More interestingly, her ovaries were found to be predominantly 46,XY (93 percent 46,XY and 6 percent 45,X), i.e. her ovaries contained chromosomes typically found in the cells of male individuals. [/quote]
[b]https://www.iflscience.com/the-woman-who-gave-birth-despite-most-of-her-cells-having-xy-chromosomes-61747[/b]

@ElwoodBlues birth defect once again.
Do you know what a birth defect is? surely you must since I have already explained it but i will yet again, a birth defect is an abnormal condition present at birth.
so if you really try to make the claim that 1.7% of the population born with a abnormal condition is not a birth defect, I am sorry but you're incredibly wrong

@Torsten I went to school with a population that tended to be in the top 2% of math abilities. By your definition they were all birth defects, [b]LOL!!![/b]

Just 2% of the population has green eyes (grey is even rarer). By your definition they are all birth defects, [b]LOL!!![/b]

Just 1% of the population has AB negative blood type. By your definition they are all birth defects, [b]LOL!!![/b]

Less than 0.1% of the population has perfect pitch. By your definition they are all birth defects, [b]LOL!!![/b]

Putting some vague definition of "normal" on a pedestal is a silly idea.

@ElwoodBlues so explain what a birth defect is than in that case. Tell me how I am wrong with what i said a birth defect is

@Torsten I think use of the phrase "birth defect" indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and human variation.

I think my examples of rare eye colors, perfect pitch, rare math abilities, etc make clear how badly your definition of "birth defect" fails.

@ElwoodBlues so you basically just deny birth defects being a real thing in general. Makes sense now and it makes even more sense for me to be done with this convo.
I said from the start of this. I will not ignore reality to please others and sorry, I wont be doing that for you either

@Torsten If you can't define "birth defect" then it is a meaningless phrase. Your refusal to open your mind to the range of human variation says more about your preconceptions than it says about reality.

I went to school with a population that tended to be in the top 2% of math abilities. By your definition they were all birth defects, LOL!!!

Just 2% of the population has green eyes (grey is even rarer). By your definition they are all birth defects, LOL!!!

Just 1% of the population has AB negative blood type. By your definition they are all birth defects, LOL!!!

Less than 0.1% of the population has perfect pitch. By your definition they are all birth defects, LOL!!!

Putting some vague definition of "normal" on a pedestal is a silly idea.

[sep][sep][sep][center] UPDATE [/center][sep][sep][sep]

You [i]attempted[/i] to define "birth defect" as rarity. I've presented a pile of examples showing how that definition fails. Have a good one yourself.

@ElwoodBlues i already did define it. You have ignored it and now i will ignore you. Have a good one

@Torsten It's odd how gender is separate from sex and having a dick doesn't make you male, but birth defects prove more than one gender.

@ElwoodBlues Really not sure what you're trying to get at here. @Torsten is right regarding birth defects. Unless they're detected during routine scans whilst in the womb they are detected at birth. I have a rare blood type AB+ something like 4% of the population only have it but I don't consider that a defect. My daughter has spina bifida, one in something like 4000 children have her type of spina bifida, and yes that is a defect/disability but it doesn't define her. She's unique. As everyone is in their own way. At birth though you are born either male or female. Very rarely are you born with both genitalia.