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New Data Links Pandemic’s Origins to Raccoon Dogs at Wuhan Market

(New York Times) - Truncated

An international team of virus experts said on Thursday that they had found genetic data from a market in Wuhan, China, linking the coronavirus with raccoon dogs for sale there, adding evidence to the case that the worst pandemic in a century could have been ignited by an infected animal that was being dealt through the illegal wildlife trade.

The genetic data was drawn from swabs taken from in and around the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market starting in January 2020, shortly after the Chinese authorities had shut down the market because of suspicions that it was linked to the outbreak of a new virus. By then, the animals had been cleared out, but researchers swabbed walls, floors, metal cages and carts often used for transporting animal cages.

In samples that came back positive for the coronavirus, the international research team found genetic material belonging to animals, including large amounts that were a match for the raccoon dog, three scientists involved in the analysis said.

The jumbling together of genetic material from the virus and the animal does not prove that a raccoon dog itself was infected. And even if a raccoon dog had been infected, it would not be clear that the animal had spread the virus to people. Another animal could have passed the virus to people, or someone infected with the virus could have spread the virus to a raccoon dog.

But the analysis did establish that raccoon dogs — fluffy animals that are related to foxes and are known to be able to transmit the coronavirus — deposited genetic signatures in the same place where genetic material from the virus was left, the three scientists said. That evidence, they said, was consistent with a scenario in which the virus had spilled into humans from a wild animal.

Full story - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/science/covid-wuhan-market-raccoon-dogs-lab-leak.html
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Doomflower · 36-40, M
This reminds me of the book The Plague Dogs.

It was humans experimenting on animals in a lab who released this virus. I am certain of that. What I am not certain of is if it was evil or incompetence that led to the outbreak.

Once again, the outcome is the same.
Ynotisay · M
@Doomflower OK. But how you could POSSIBLY say you're certain? You have zero access to any of the information and data that would go in to making a legitimate determination. You believe. That's an entirely different thing, right?
Doomflower · 36-40, M
@Ynotisay I am certain in the sense that I am certain we have been lied to by people trying to tell us this is natural in origin.

https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/

Every explanation I've heard for natural origins is bullshit. Did someone french kiss a bat, eat a sick pangolin, a bad fish, get bit by a sick dog, or could it have come from the lab studying corona virus in the area? Like, let me think REEEEEEELLY hard which is more likely:

1) The virus just HAPPENED to mutate and become virulent on a pandemic scale next to the... *checks notes*... the wuhan virology lab studying coronavirus

2) It was leaked from the lab.

I do not believe for one second the coronavirus which has been around for centuries suddenly just happened to mutate and become a pandemic because of some wet market. Not when there is an explanation that requires far fewer assumptions literally at the epicenter of the pandemic.

So yeah, CERTAIN.
Doomflower · 36-40, M
@Ynotisay and regarding your OP I have to say knowing the origin is critically important. What happened at that lab?
Ynotisay · M
@Doomflower OK. As long as know you can acknowledge, and nothing personal, that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're not arguing for or against its origins. You're arguing against authority. Either political or scientific. I don't get that.
Side note. Zoonotic viruses really do happen. You know, Ebola, HIV, Salmonella, Swine flu, etc. Not the worst reminder for people to remember that we're animals too.
Ynotisay · M
@Doomflower Use the link I shared to go read the article. It's the NY Times so every word has been vetted and verified.
@Doomflower Two other recent viral infections started in Chinese wet markets. Both these publications are from well before Covid.

[quote] An epidemic of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) began in Foshan municipality, Guangdong Province, China, in November 2002. ...early case-patients were more likely than later patients to report living near a produce market (odds ratio undefined; lower 95% confidence interval 2.39) but not near a farm; and 9 (39%) of 23 early patients, including 6 who lived or worked in Foshan, were food handlers with probable animal contact. [/quote] [b]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323155/[/b]

[quote] Live Poultry Market Closure and Control of Avian Influenza A(H7N9), Shanghai, China

Previous studies have shown that LPMs are potential locations for virus transmission through human-poultry contact (8,9). Our field investigation of the 6 initially confirmed influenza A(H7N9) case-patients revealed that 2 had visited LPMs, 2 had direct contact with live poultry from LPMs, and 1 had experienced both exposures. To assess the risk for infection at LPMs, we collected 280 water, soil, cloacal swab, and throat swab samples from the LPMs surrounding the locations of the initial 6 cases. PCR testing found that 20 samples were positive for influenza A(H7N9) virus. These results indicate that the human case-patients were most likely infected from poultry in LPMs. [/quote]
[b]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4178391/[/b]

The connection between wet markets and zoonotic infections - both in Africa and China - was well known long before Covid.
Ynotisay · M
@ElwoodBlues Thanks for that. It's not an uncommon occurrence. Throughout human history. Maybe western countries have grown so accustomed to having safe food channels that they don't consider how much of the rest of the world lives.
Doomflower · 36-40, M
@ElwoodBlues yeah but those were minor compared to covid. I barely remember either one of those outbreaks and I certainly didn't have to work from home.

I'm not saying zoonotic infections don't or haven't happened but they were studying covid in the area where covid happened to break out with the adaptability of a weaponized infection.
Doomflower · 36-40, M
@Ynotisay I am just pissed that the world is ruined and the rich got richer and the poor got poorer and the suffering is increasing and looks to continue that trend. The most common cause of our suffering is ourselves. You can see how my brain is convinced this was people.
Ynotisay · M
@Doomflower I hear what you're saying. We share some of the same takes on how humanity is operating. But I have trust that there are VERY smart people in the world dedicated to not only working from a place of the best available information but doing so to better the lives of others. The problem is that it takes very, very few to greatly worsen the lives of the many.
@Doomflower [quote]they were studying covid in the area where covid happened[/quote] They were studying bat-borne viruses in an area where bats are common. Bats can carry literally 50 viral infections simultaneously without being harmed. How do bats protect themselves? We don't know, but the answer could be very valuable to humanity.

[quote]with the adaptability of a weaponized infection.[/quote] Nah, a 1% overall kill rate, mostly among the over 60 set, isn't a very good weapon. The earlier SARS had a 10% or higher fatality rate.
Doomflower · 36-40, M
@ElwoodBlues so how many more people did SARS kill? How many countries did it shut down?
@Doomflower SARS hit Asian countries; China, India, South Korea. China kept silent about SARS for the early months, but once SARS hit Hong Kong and spread internationally, nations locked down and masked up fast.

[quote] Over about nine months, from late 2002 until July 2003, a deadly disease known as severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS, spread from China into 29 countries. It infected 8,096 people, and killed 774, mostly in Asia.

One of the main reasons it had such a large and quick impact was that China failed to notify the World Health Organization until February 2003, several months after the SARS virus was first discovered. [/quote]
[b]https://www.businessinsider.com/deadly-sars-virus-history-2003-in-photos-2020-2#quarantines-became-a-staple-in-beijing-crime-scene-tape-was-wrapped-around-an-entire-block-keeping-2000-health-employees-contained-and-cut-off-24[/b]

Oh, wait, there's more.
[quote] In the United States, only eight people were infected, and no one died. This was partly due to the country being in a heightened state of alert after September 11, and the anthrax postal attacks. Another reason, according to The New York Times, was "sheer good luck."

Toronto, Canada, wasn't so lucky. The city was declared SARS-free in May, but later cases emerged. In the end, 375 people were infected and 44 people died. Up to 80% of small Asian-owned businesses' income was estimated to be lost because of racist boycotting.

But in relative terms, Hong Kong got it the worst. Along with a recession due to the city coming to a standstill, 1,755 people were infected, and 299 people died. [/quote]