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Trevor Noah is brilliant, once again…

Noah received a criticism from the French about a joke he told regarding the French soccer team. And he turned that rebuke on its [b]head[/b].
[media=https://youtu.be/COD9hcTpGWQ]

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Kwek00 · 41-45, M

I would actually like to know if you:

- Were born in a country
- Grew up in a country
- Went to school in a country

As mentioned in (1:47), practically swimming in a dataset that largely [i](considering pop culture and the internet)[/i] belonged to what you might call a "national" dataset. That you become part of that nation?

If the argument is, that these people can be both... then again, how can the be both? If they never grew up in the dataset that forms your opinions and behaviors of the second dataset?

... When I listen to Trevor, I dare to say that the only part how they can and have to be both is by looking a skin color? Just like the examples that he give to people on the extreme right, that deny people their nationality because of the skin colour not being part of the "norm" in the past because of a racial [i](and/or traditional)[/i] interpretation of national identity. Which is, btw, also the argument that he himself ends with elevating that kind of behavior to the norm. Where a person that has a skin color is put into a collection of people just because of how they look, negating where they grew up and which culture they have formed their identity in.

This idea of a multi-national identity, by people that NEVER were attached to the identity that they are leeching on too because of roots, often leads to dissenchantment exactly because of that reason. If you read up on people that have Turkish or Moroccon roots which are 3th, and by now even 4th, generation immigrants are often heartbreaking. It's the group of people that Trevor criticizes in his last part AND that he agrees earlier that part of a far-right perception on identity earlier, that makes these people feel unwanted in the nation that they grow up in. Then they leech on to another identity, the one that they perceive themselves a part off because of their roots. But once they go to Morocco or Turkey, they quickly find out that they are just as much immigrants over there then that they feel inside the nation that they should be a part of because of their upbringing. Exactly because they don't share these cultural bonds.

So yeah... I don't know, I think the issue is more complex. And I personally think that people that never had a connection to a nation except for some background that is hidden 2, 3 or 4 generations ago, are lieing to themselves if they perceive themselves part of that group. That also counts for Americans celebrating Saint Patricks' day and "feel" Irish. But when we talk about identity, rationality leaves the room at the beginning of the conversation. I don't think that a lot of Irish would ever perceive an American that has grown up from an American family that has roots in Ireland 4-5-6 generations ago, as an "Irish" person.

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bijouxbroussard · F

@Kwek00 You cannot compare the African diaspora to [b]any[/b] other experience. It just isn’t the same. And I get what you’re saying, but many of the French of African descent are only one or two generations away, to the point where they know what ethnicity, tribe, culture, encompasses their African roots. In the U.S. that was taken away, much longer ago. You couldn’t possibly understand.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@bijouxbroussard "You couldn't possibly understand", isn't an answer to the questions that I asked. Also, it keeps perpetuating the same issue, the same issue the US has been struggling with since African slaves became citizens.

At this point, I also disagree with the idea that the issues with identitarian sentiments are unique to a particulair group. Cosidering that immigrants from all kinds of groups experience similair issues. ESPESCIALLY, when it comes to people that categorise people by looks and neglect their cultural upbringing.

bijouxbroussard · F

@Kwek00 Again, it’s not the same.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@bijouxbroussard You can keep saying that but I'm seriously missing an explanation 🤷‍♂️

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@Kwek00 I wholly disagree with the notion that Irish Americans and the Irish diaspora aren't Irish. Most of us are descended from people who escaped the famine. Many of us have meaningfully contributed to Ireland and still practice a lot of Irish cultural.

Armenians faced a genocide, they still regard their diaspora as Armenians, because the culture is still there, even if it's mixed with whichever host country they had to flee to.

bijouxbroussard · F

@Kwek00 We’ve had this discussion, you’re expressing the same opinions as before. Ergo you either didn’t hear me before or you disagreed, so there’s really no point in going there again.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@basilfawlty89 And the moment any of you go back to Ireland, you'll be perceived as Irish? Because you get drunk once a year and put some coins on someones eyes?

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@Kwek00 I actually speak some Gaelic, know the history of my people, know the history of the troubles, etc. You're basing things off a stereotype you've seen in the media.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@basilfawlty89 Lol "mah people"...

But just answer the question, the moment a 2nd, 3th, 4th, ... generation immigrant returns to Ireland, will they be perceived as Irish by the people actually living there? Or is it just a sentiment that that person has because there is some desperation to belong to a group that (s)he never grew up in?

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@Kwek00 so using your logic, Armenian Americans for example should just assimilate and drop a thousands of years old culture, just because they escaped the genocide to an otar country?

It's not up to you or anyone else to say what someone has the right to identify as. Are Japanese Americans who were in internment camps suddenly not allowed to acknowledge their identity as Japanese solely for having emigrated?

Gatekeeping is horseshit.

damselfly · 100+, F

@Kwek00 i think youve nailed something there

bijouxbroussard · F

@damselfly But it’s just [b]theory[/b], from that perspective. It may [b]sound[/b] logical, but it’s not the way many people actually in the situation feel about it.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@basilfawlty89
@basilfawlty89
[quote]@Kwek00 so using your logic, Armenian Americans for example should just assimilate and drop a thousands of years old culture, just because they escaped the genocide to an otar country?
[/quote]

Over generations, yes. It will be part of the proces.

It's not up to me, it will happen by itself. At least, as long as the culture that they grow up in don't alienate those that grow up in their cultural datapool. It's exactly this reflex of pushing people out because of how people look and what their herritage is from (long down the family tree) that keeps people desperatly grabbing back to things that are no longer there. If they want to do that... fine, but the moment they actually return to the tribe that they are desperatly want to belong too, they'll experience the same problems unless that culture is totally open too accepting people just because of their roots. Which is rare, but not unexcisting.

And again, all these things are sentiments anyway. It's irrational as fuck, but leeching on to something you were never a part off just because you desperatly want to be, is a step that I think isn't healthy and creates even more issues and stops assimilation. Which creates its own issues inside the nation.

bijouxbroussard · F

@Kwek00 This is [b]why[/b] I don’t believe you understand. In some countries, some groups are not really allowed to "assimilate" into the mainstream culture. You’re Belgian, right ? Are you the child of parents from a minority group with roots outside of that country ? Or is your ancestry ethnically Belgian going back several generations ?

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@bijouxbroussard I've never looked up my roots, I don't really need those to define myself.

And I share the dismay of not being "allowed" to assimilate. As I expressed over and over and over in my replies. But if this dismay leads a person to leech on to some other identity out of desperation, that doesn't help the next generation and keeps perpetuating the issue that we've been discussing.

bijouxbroussard · F

@Kwek00 That’s why I asked, to see if you had any background experience that might even allow you to empathize. Doesn’t sound like you do.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@bijouxbroussard Oh, so because I have no personal background I can't form any valid opinion about it? No worries, I deal with Sunsporter arguments all day Bijoux, I laugh at him too when he tells me I'm not American enough to understand US politics.

bijouxbroussard · F

@Kwek00 Sunsporter’s a whole different ballgame. But rest assured, he doesn’t understand [b]this[/b], either.

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@Kwek00 here's where your idea falls flat, I go back to the example of Armenians. Most Armenians live [b] outside [/b] of the Republic of Armenia, thanks to the Genocidal. Eight million Armenians live scattered around the globe, granted with some ethnic enclaves. Only three million live in Armenia. By telling them to assimilate, and not teaching their children their unique history and culture, it only furthers the goal of the Armenian Genocide i.e the destruction of the Armenian culture and history.

Many Armenians have moved from around the globe to resettle Armenia. A friend of mine is a Lebanese Armenian whose family left for Canada after the conflicts on Lebanon. She is fluent in both Western and Eastern Armenian. A decade ago she moved to Armenia. She's married now to an Armenian from the Republic and lives there. What's wrong with what she did?

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@basilfawlty89 And this is why I'm wrong? It's almost as if I need to shed a tear about the fact that cultures get lost through time. But I'm sorry dude, this has been part of how societies and cultures have developed since the moment their was a culture. It's neither "good" nor "bad", it just is. However, clinging to something that isn't there stops assimilation, and perpetuates all these emotions of people feeling left out and being left out by those that perceive that assimilation isn't achieved over several generations. Which in turn generates all kinds of issues in society.

And over time those peoples childrens' will become Lebanese, considering that generations keep growing up in other datasets then the one that once excited in Armenia. You can't keep conserving culture, this doesn't even happen in a nation that has it's own culture. Cause cultures change. And this reflex to conserve into infinity will eventually lead to all kinds of issues and reactionairy mentality. Things you can perceive in every culture that conserves just for the cause of conservation.

Ozymandiaz

@Kwek00 @basilfawlty89 You know it comes down to the debate about national identity is it via blood or culture?

I think the blood view of national identity is pretty medieval and fairly dangerous.

For any important metric, it is cultural similarities that are important.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@Ozymandiaz That's part of my point.

Ozymandiaz

@Kwek00 I noticed

Ozymandiaz

I just said it better 😝

damselfly · 100+, F

@Kwek00 its also the truth that one you become a refugee (because your own culture is changing unlivably, or cannot dustain you or aporeciate your skills) then you have the duty of common courtesy to adapt to the culture of the country that gives you refuge. You can't really expect to be made welcome in a new environment if you don't have the least intention of learning and following the socital rules

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