acpguy · C
What is insane is that Ukraine did not exist until recent history and was actually originally Russia. Here is some history of Ukraine to help clear things up if you are into lengthy reading.
"Soon after the Bolsheviks seized control in immense, troubled Russia in November 1917 and moved toward negotiating peace with the Central Powers, the former Russian state of Ukraine declares its total independence.
One of pre-war Russia’s most prosperous areas, the vast, flat Ukraine (the name can be translated as at the border or borderland) was one of the major wheat-producing regions of Europe as well as rich with mineral resources, including vast deposits of iron and coal. The majority of Ukraine was incorporated into the Russian empire after the second partition of Poland in 1793, while the remaining section—the principality of Galicia—remained part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and was a key battleground on World War I’s Eastern Front.
Immediately following the overthrow of the czar in February 1917, Ukraine set up a provisional government and proclaimed itself a republic within the structure of a federated Russia. After Vladimir Lenin and his radical Bolsheviks rose to power in November, Ukraine—like its fellow former Russian property, Finland—took one step further, declaring its complete independence in January 1918.
But Ukraine’s Rada government, formed after the secession, had serious difficulty imposing its rule on the people in the face of Bolshevik opposition and counter-revolutionary activity within the country. Seeing Ukraine as an ideal and much-needed source of food for their hunger-plagued people, Germany and Austria brought in troops to preserve order, forcing the Russian troops occupying the country to leave under the terms of the treaty at Brest-Litovsk, signed in March 1918, and virtually annexing the region, while supposedly recognizing Ukrainian independence. In the words of Wilhelm Groener, a German army commander in Kiev, "The [Ukrainian] administrative structure is in total disorder, completely incompetent and in no way ready for quick results. It would be in our interests to treat the Ukrainian government as a cover and for us to do the rest ourselves."
The defeat of the Central Powers and the signing of the armistice in November 1918 forced Germany and Austria to withdraw from Ukraine. At the same time, with the fall of the Austro-Hungarian empire, an independent West Ukrainian republic was proclaimed in the Galician city of Lviv. The two Ukrainian states proclaimed their union in early 1919, but independence was short-lived, as they immediately found themselves in a three-way struggle against troops from both Poland and Russia. The Ukrainian government briefly allied themselves with Poland, but could not withstand the Soviet assault. In 1922, Ukraine became one of the original constituent republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R.); it would not regain its independence until the U.S.S.R.’s collapse in 1991.
In 2022, Ukraine was invaded by Russia in an attempt to reclaim the country as a Russian territory."
"Soon after the Bolsheviks seized control in immense, troubled Russia in November 1917 and moved toward negotiating peace with the Central Powers, the former Russian state of Ukraine declares its total independence.
One of pre-war Russia’s most prosperous areas, the vast, flat Ukraine (the name can be translated as at the border or borderland) was one of the major wheat-producing regions of Europe as well as rich with mineral resources, including vast deposits of iron and coal. The majority of Ukraine was incorporated into the Russian empire after the second partition of Poland in 1793, while the remaining section—the principality of Galicia—remained part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and was a key battleground on World War I’s Eastern Front.
Immediately following the overthrow of the czar in February 1917, Ukraine set up a provisional government and proclaimed itself a republic within the structure of a federated Russia. After Vladimir Lenin and his radical Bolsheviks rose to power in November, Ukraine—like its fellow former Russian property, Finland—took one step further, declaring its complete independence in January 1918.
But Ukraine’s Rada government, formed after the secession, had serious difficulty imposing its rule on the people in the face of Bolshevik opposition and counter-revolutionary activity within the country. Seeing Ukraine as an ideal and much-needed source of food for their hunger-plagued people, Germany and Austria brought in troops to preserve order, forcing the Russian troops occupying the country to leave under the terms of the treaty at Brest-Litovsk, signed in March 1918, and virtually annexing the region, while supposedly recognizing Ukrainian independence. In the words of Wilhelm Groener, a German army commander in Kiev, "The [Ukrainian] administrative structure is in total disorder, completely incompetent and in no way ready for quick results. It would be in our interests to treat the Ukrainian government as a cover and for us to do the rest ourselves."
The defeat of the Central Powers and the signing of the armistice in November 1918 forced Germany and Austria to withdraw from Ukraine. At the same time, with the fall of the Austro-Hungarian empire, an independent West Ukrainian republic was proclaimed in the Galician city of Lviv. The two Ukrainian states proclaimed their union in early 1919, but independence was short-lived, as they immediately found themselves in a three-way struggle against troops from both Poland and Russia. The Ukrainian government briefly allied themselves with Poland, but could not withstand the Soviet assault. In 1922, Ukraine became one of the original constituent republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R.); it would not regain its independence until the U.S.S.R.’s collapse in 1991.
In 2022, Ukraine was invaded by Russia in an attempt to reclaim the country as a Russian territory."
carpediem · 61-69, M
No. Russia will never give up access to the Black Sea. It's strategically critical and there is no way in hell they will give it up. Obama knew that and sat back while they took it.
I doubt they'll walk away from Donbass. The claim they are saving Russian people there (which may have a small grain of truth in it) is one of their moral justifications for the invasion. They can't just walk away without looking incredibly weak. Also, the US foolishly claiming (under Biden) that Ukraine will get into NATO is another major issue after there were promises not to do so.
Ukraine can't even fight the war without US support. But due to Zelensky's idiocy, that's over. It's time they see reality and move towards peace.
I doubt they'll walk away from Donbass. The claim they are saving Russian people there (which may have a small grain of truth in it) is one of their moral justifications for the invasion. They can't just walk away without looking incredibly weak. Also, the US foolishly claiming (under Biden) that Ukraine will get into NATO is another major issue after there were promises not to do so.
Ukraine can't even fight the war without US support. But due to Zelensky's idiocy, that's over. It's time they see reality and move towards peace.
ABCDEF7 · M
Ukraine can win.
Russia can also win.
But one thing is for sure.
Soldiers will die, children will lose their father/mother or both, women will become widows, many will become homeless, and humanity will be defeated.
"If we don't end war. War will end us." - H.G Wells
Russia can also win.
But one thing is for sure.
Soldiers will die, children will lose their father/mother or both, women will become widows, many will become homeless, and humanity will be defeated.
"If we don't end war. War will end us." - H.G Wells
DownTheStreet · 56-60, M
Eject Russia from all the territory it seized in both 2021 and 2014, and have Russia stop trying to take it? Not as long as Putin is alive. The most Ukraine can hope for is to drain Russia faster than they can sustain, in order to press for a ceasefire and then get back whatever Ukraine can negotiate.
NoGamesTolerated · F
@DownTheStreet I don’t see that happening, but what do I know?
DownTheStreet · 56-60, M
@NoGamesTolerated Putin (unfortunately) is a survivor. He is motivated by a genuine love of Russia, what he sees as his anointed role there around the world. He seems the Ukraine war as resisting NATO and preserving the legacy of mother Russia and the Soviet empire - with its geography, geology, and agriculture. The German invasion in WW2 remains deeply engrained in the Russian psyche, and Ukraine flipping over to Russia halves the distance from NATO borders to Moscow. There are many reasons he invaded and hasn't given up despite huge costs and losses for relatively little gain over 3 years. Plus, Finland and Sweden joined NATO. None of it looks good -- but it doesn't matter.
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wildbill83 · 41-45, M
wildbill83 · 41-45, M
@CrazyMusicLover That europeans think Z is a "hero" for sending his people to their deaths...
bear in mind, this is coming from the same countries that nominated Stalin for nobel peace price...
bear in mind, this is coming from the same countries that nominated Stalin for nobel peace price...
CrazyMusicLover · 31-35
@wildbill83 Europeans see Ukraine as a buffer zone between Russia and Ukraine. If Ukraine falls Russian fascists won't stop there.
wildbill83 · 41-45, M
@CrazyMusicLover maybe NATO should've thought of that before inviting a bunch of former warsaw pact countries to join (the very countries of which NATO was formed to counter in the first place...)
vis-à-vis, NATO has become the new USSR...
vis-à-vis, NATO has become the new USSR...
NoGamesTolerated · F
@acpguy I don’t feel they will either. 😞