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TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
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ElwoodBlues · M
@TheOthetAcc Oh, so you think Ukraine threatened to invade Russia?? [b]ROTFL!!![/b]
Putin Actually wanted Russia to join NATO back in 2000. [quote] “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”[/quote]
And here's a map of NATO members and when they joined. The major eastward expansion actually happened in 2004.
![]()
Funny thing - a bunch of nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot decided to join a mutual self-defense treaty!
Putin Actually wanted Russia to join NATO back in 2000. [quote] “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”[/quote]
And here's a map of NATO members and when they joined. The major eastward expansion actually happened in 2004.
Funny thing - a bunch of nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot decided to join a mutual self-defense treaty!
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@ElwoodBlues [quote]Putin Actually wanted Russia to join NATO back in 2000.
“Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”[/quote]
Irrelevant
[quote]And here's a map of NATO members and when they joined. The major eastward expansion actually happened in 2004.[/quote]
We'll just ignore that NATO began expansion before Putin was president. Not to mention it was a topic long before it would ever be known that Putin would stand for presidency
[quote]. Funny thing - a bunch of nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot decided to join a mutual self-defense treaty! [/quote]
Of course. I'm certain they all went running willingly without the threat of stringent economic sanctions and a color revolution looming over their heads
“Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”[/quote]
Irrelevant
[quote]And here's a map of NATO members and when they joined. The major eastward expansion actually happened in 2004.[/quote]
We'll just ignore that NATO began expansion before Putin was president. Not to mention it was a topic long before it would ever be known that Putin would stand for presidency
[quote]. Funny thing - a bunch of nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot decided to join a mutual self-defense treaty! [/quote]
Of course. I'm certain they all went running willingly without the threat of stringent economic sanctions and a color revolution looming over their heads
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheOthetAcc Putin wanting Russia to join NATO back in 2000 is QUITE relevant because it demonstrates that Putin didn't see NATO as a threat. Just the opposite - he saw it as an economic benefit.
[quote]We'll just ignore that NATO began expansion before Putin was president.[/quote]
Funny thing - a bunch of nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot decided to join a mutual self-defense treaty!
![]()
[quote]We'll just ignore that NATO began expansion before Putin was president.[/quote]
Funny thing - a bunch of nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot decided to join a mutual self-defense treaty!
CrazyMusicLover · 31-35
@TheOthetAcc That's why they murder children, attack schools, hospitals and kindergartens. Oh wait...they are just collateral damage for you. You can safely say that from the comfort of your sofa.
You make me throw up.
You make me throw up.
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@ElwoodBlues [quote]Putin wanting Russia to join NATO back in 2000 is QUITE relevant because it demonstrates that Putin didn't see NATO as a threat. Just the opposite - he saw it as an economic benefit.[/quote]
Ridiculous. Had Russia joined NATO that would take away from NATO [b]being[/b] a threat.
[quote]a bunch of nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot decided to join a mutual self-defense treaty![/quote]
And when did the the Soviet Union collapse? What threat was Russia in 1999 when it was at it's weakest? Cuba also sought sought help from the USSR in 62'. If anyone is going to lecture Russia about being neighborly it sure as fuck isn't going to be the US
Ridiculous. Had Russia joined NATO that would take away from NATO [b]being[/b] a threat.
[quote]a bunch of nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot decided to join a mutual self-defense treaty![/quote]
And when did the the Soviet Union collapse? What threat was Russia in 1999 when it was at it's weakest? Cuba also sought sought help from the USSR in 62'. If anyone is going to lecture Russia about being neighborly it sure as fuck isn't going to be the US
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@CrazyMusicLover cry me a river. Where are your tears for the people of the Donbas that were shelled by Ukrainian forces and continue to be shelled to this day with weapons provided for by the west? Oh they don't matter because they're Russian yeah?
[quote]You make me throw up[/quote]
Make sure you eat it when you are done
[quote]You make me throw up[/quote]
Make sure you eat it when you are done
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheOthetAcc says [quote]Had Russia joined NATO that would take away from NATO being a threat. [/quote] EXACTLY my point! Putin didn't see NATO as a threat. Yet he didn't choose to apply to join. His whole "threatened by NATO" kabuki theater came later.
[quote]What threat was Russia in 1999 when it was at it's weakest?[/quote] Roughly 2400 nuclear warheads and a 1.4 million person military worth of threat. I'm sure Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia took that into account when they applied to join NATO.
[quote]What threat was Russia in 1999 when it was at it's weakest?[/quote] Roughly 2400 nuclear warheads and a 1.4 million person military worth of threat. I'm sure Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia took that into account when they applied to join NATO.
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TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@ElwoodBlues [quote]EXACTLY my point! Putin didn't see NATO as a threat. Yet he didn't choose to apply to join. His whole "threatened by NATO" kabuki theater came later.[/quote]
That's not MY point. Learn to read with understanding. Do NATO nations have a habit of invading each other? THINK!
[quote]Roughly 2400 nuclear warheads [/quote]
[quote]1.4 million person military worth of threat. I'm sure Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia took that into account when they applied to join NATO.[/quote]
2400 nuclear warheads. Gee I wonder if theres a country that actually ever used those things.......🤔I really do. I know for certain it wasn't Russia.
Russian Military personal
97'. 1.8 million.
98'. 1.7 million
99'. 1.4 million.
Looks like a massive decline to me. Not to mention, the economic and national mess Russia was in during the 90s and early 00's, Russia was in no position to threaten anyone.
That's not MY point. Learn to read with understanding. Do NATO nations have a habit of invading each other? THINK!
[quote]Roughly 2400 nuclear warheads [/quote]
[quote]1.4 million person military worth of threat. I'm sure Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia took that into account when they applied to join NATO.[/quote]
2400 nuclear warheads. Gee I wonder if theres a country that actually ever used those things.......🤔I really do. I know for certain it wasn't Russia.
Russian Military personal
97'. 1.8 million.
98'. 1.7 million
99'. 1.4 million.
Looks like a massive decline to me. Not to mention, the economic and national mess Russia was in during the 90s and early 00's, Russia was in no position to threaten anyone.
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ElwoodBlues · M
@TheOthetAcc says [quote]That's no MY point.[/quote] The info you cited supports my point and not yours. [b]LOL!!![/b]
You asked [quote] What threat was Russia in 1999 when it was at it's weakest? [/quote] And my answer still stands: The threat was roughly 2400 nuclear warheads and a 1.4 million person military worth of threat. That's quite a threat, of COURSE nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot wanted to join a mutual defense treaty.
[quote] I'm certain they all went running willingly without the threat of stringent economic sanctions [/quote] Yes, once they had the power to elect their own leaders, they did come willingly. Sure, NATO and the EU isn't perfect, but it's far better than being under the boot of the nation that had oppressed them for so long.
[quote]Looks like a massive decline to me. [/quote] Don't worry. Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia ALL took that into account when they applied to join NATO.
You asked [quote] What threat was Russia in 1999 when it was at it's weakest? [/quote] And my answer still stands: The threat was roughly 2400 nuclear warheads and a 1.4 million person military worth of threat. That's quite a threat, of COURSE nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot wanted to join a mutual defense treaty.
[quote] I'm certain they all went running willingly without the threat of stringent economic sanctions [/quote] Yes, once they had the power to elect their own leaders, they did come willingly. Sure, NATO and the EU isn't perfect, but it's far better than being under the boot of the nation that had oppressed them for so long.
[quote]Looks like a massive decline to me. [/quote] Don't worry. Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia ALL took that into account when they applied to join NATO.
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@ElwoodBlues [quote]The info you cited supports my point and not yours. LOL!!![/quote]
I'll try make it simple. If Russia is part of NATO, why would NATO attack it? It certainly wouldn't paint a pretty picture for the weaker NATO states would it? Russia saw NATO as a threat to ITSELF. The USSR is the very reason for the existence of NATO. Therefore there's no reason for Russia to consider if NATO would be a threat to anyone else but itself. Furthermore, if there is no threat then why the need for NATO????
[quote]That's quite a threat, of COURSE nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot wanted to join a mutual defense treaty.[/quote]
And I'm telling you, the state the Russian federation was in in 99', it could pose no threat to anyone. Hence the blatant expansion of NATO even after it had been promised to Russia that there would be no expansion. Russia was weak. The US was warned long before Putin was in power that NATO expansionism would lead to disaster. The current head of the CIA once echoed that sentiment
[quote]Yes, once they had the power to elect their own leaders, they did come willingly. [/quote]
The power that comes with threats of violence and economic sanctions if they don't comply? Definitely better.
[quote]Don't worry. Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia ALL took that into account when they applied to join NATO.[/quote]
Threats of economic sanctions and colour revolutions will get you everything.
I'll try make it simple. If Russia is part of NATO, why would NATO attack it? It certainly wouldn't paint a pretty picture for the weaker NATO states would it? Russia saw NATO as a threat to ITSELF. The USSR is the very reason for the existence of NATO. Therefore there's no reason for Russia to consider if NATO would be a threat to anyone else but itself. Furthermore, if there is no threat then why the need for NATO????
[quote]That's quite a threat, of COURSE nations that had spent decades under Russia's boot wanted to join a mutual defense treaty.[/quote]
And I'm telling you, the state the Russian federation was in in 99', it could pose no threat to anyone. Hence the blatant expansion of NATO even after it had been promised to Russia that there would be no expansion. Russia was weak. The US was warned long before Putin was in power that NATO expansionism would lead to disaster. The current head of the CIA once echoed that sentiment
[quote]Yes, once they had the power to elect their own leaders, they did come willingly. [/quote]
The power that comes with threats of violence and economic sanctions if they don't comply? Definitely better.
[quote]Don't worry. Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia ALL took that into account when they applied to join NATO.[/quote]
Threats of economic sanctions and colour revolutions will get you everything.
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheOthetAcc I'll try make it simple. If Russia wanted to be part of NATO, why wouldn't they apply??
[quote]And I'm telling you, the state the Russian federation was in in 99', it could pose no threat to anyone.[/quote]
And I'm telling you assurances like that failed to convince Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia.
[quote]The power that comes with threats of violence and economic sanctions if they don't comply? [/quote] Show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Didn't happen.
What happened is they ALL wanted to be free of the Russian boot of oppression.
[quote]And I'm telling you, the state the Russian federation was in in 99', it could pose no threat to anyone.[/quote]
And I'm telling you assurances like that failed to convince Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia.
[quote]The power that comes with threats of violence and economic sanctions if they don't comply? [/quote] Show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Didn't happen.
What happened is they ALL wanted to be free of the Russian boot of oppression.
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MorbidCynic · F
@TheOthetAcc protect their borders by invading another country? 💀
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@MorbidCynic If that nation refuses negotiations in favour of hosting Russias enemies near its borders, YES! Just by the way, why was Cuba embargoed in 62'?
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheOthetAcc Dude, I'll repeat: Putin wanted Russia to join NATO back in 2000. [quote] “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”[/quote]
Your fantasies about what NATO "wants" are pure propaganda. The west LIKED it when Russia was a market and a trading partner. Russia made ITSELF a pariah nation.
[quote]. Nothing to do with Russia being a threat to those nations.[/quote] Everything to do with Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia being under the Russian boot for decades.
My challenge still stands: show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Didn't happen.
What happened is they ALL wanted to be free of the Russian boot of oppression.
Your fantasies about what NATO "wants" are pure propaganda. The west LIKED it when Russia was a market and a trading partner. Russia made ITSELF a pariah nation.
[quote]. Nothing to do with Russia being a threat to those nations.[/quote] Everything to do with Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia being under the Russian boot for decades.
My challenge still stands: show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Didn't happen.
What happened is they ALL wanted to be free of the Russian boot of oppression.
MorbidCynic · F
@TheOthetAcc I will when you tell me which countries are currently colonized by Russia. You seem to know very little about Eastern European politics.
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@ElwoodBlues [quote]Your fantasies about what NATO "wants" are pure propaganda. The west LIKED it when Russia was a market and a trading partner. Russia made ITSELF a pariah nation.[/quote]
This is funny coming from the most propagandized individual here. Tell me again what the purpose of NATO is, why was it formed? Why does it continue to exist? And if the west liked Russia so much why not simply include in NATO to show that the west is of no threat? Indeed why should Russia wait in line to join NATO if the threat is RUSSIA?
[quote]show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Didn't happen.[/quote]
Im going to guess there's a specific reason why you avoid asking about Ukraine...
This is funny coming from the most propagandized individual here. Tell me again what the purpose of NATO is, why was it formed? Why does it continue to exist? And if the west liked Russia so much why not simply include in NATO to show that the west is of no threat? Indeed why should Russia wait in line to join NATO if the threat is RUSSIA?
[quote]show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Didn't happen.[/quote]
Im going to guess there's a specific reason why you avoid asking about Ukraine...
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@MorbidCynic When you answer a question with a question, I can only assume you have no arguments
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheOthetAcc Ducking the question with personal insults and distraction attempts, LOL!!!
So you can't show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Good to know.
BTW, you, and Putin, seem to be forgetting a three-way treaty known as the [i]1994 Budapest Memorandum.[/i]
Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.
[quote]In the final version of the deal, Russia promised not to attack Ukraine. While the U.S. and the U.K. assured Ukraine they would aid if it was attacked by Russia, that promised aid did not guarantee military support like a NATO country would receive.
In 2009, Russia and the U.S. announced that the assurances in the Budapest Memorandum would continue to remain in effect in the future. [/quote]
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44
Russia promised [i]specifically[/i] NOT to invade Ukraine, and the U.S. promised [i]specifically[/i] to ASSIST Ukraine if the treaty were ever violated. And that's what the U.S. is doing now.
So you can't show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Good to know.
BTW, you, and Putin, seem to be forgetting a three-way treaty known as the [i]1994 Budapest Memorandum.[/i]
Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.
[quote]In the final version of the deal, Russia promised not to attack Ukraine. While the U.S. and the U.K. assured Ukraine they would aid if it was attacked by Russia, that promised aid did not guarantee military support like a NATO country would receive.
In 2009, Russia and the U.S. announced that the assurances in the Budapest Memorandum would continue to remain in effect in the future. [/quote]
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44
Russia promised [i]specifically[/i] NOT to invade Ukraine, and the U.S. promised [i]specifically[/i] to ASSIST Ukraine if the treaty were ever violated. And that's what the U.S. is doing now.
MorbidCynic · F
@TheOthetAcc when you ask an irrelevant question, I assume the same. Let me know when you actually want to have a conversation instead of mind games.
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@MorbidCynic ok. Bye
TheOthetAcc · 36-40, M
@ElwoodBlues
[quote]. Ducking the question with personal insults and distraction attempts, LOL!!! [/quote]
Personal insults for calling you propagandized after you insinuated the same of me...? Get over it 😂.
However you yourself appear guilty of the same thing you accused me of. I answered you and you didn't like my reply. So I'm assuming there's a reason you don't ask about Ukraine?
[quote]1994 Budapest Memorandum.
[/quote]
The Budapest memorandum only stands under condition that Ukraine remain neutral. But even so, the United states government itself does not regard the BM as legally binding.
[quote]. Ducking the question with personal insults and distraction attempts, LOL!!! [/quote]
Personal insults for calling you propagandized after you insinuated the same of me...? Get over it 😂.
However you yourself appear guilty of the same thing you accused me of. I answered you and you didn't like my reply. So I'm assuming there's a reason you don't ask about Ukraine?
[quote]1994 Budapest Memorandum.
[/quote]
The Budapest memorandum only stands under condition that Ukraine remain neutral. But even so, the United states government itself does not regard the BM as legally binding.
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheOthetAcc [quote]The Budapest memorandum only stands under condition that Ukraine remain neutral.[/quote] Show me where it says that. I gave you a link to the full text. Oh, wait, you can't show me because you just made that condition up!!
STILL waiting for you to show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Didn't happen.
STILL waiting for you to show me a SINGLE threat of sanctions against any one of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. Didn't happen.
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