Why does Zelenskyy invoke tragic events?

Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has invoked the Holocaust to Israel, the Blitz to the British Parliament, Pearl Harbour to the U.S Congress, and the Berlin Wall to the German Bundestag. The most inappropriate comparison has definitely been the Holocaust, because this was not a war or an attack on a nation for political reasons. Jewish people were systematically targeted by the Nazis and there was absolutely no provocation for it, and nothing they could do about it. As I have said to people in my post about Ukraine, in a war you are presented with choices...you can choose to fight, or you can choose to surrender. If you surrender, the general rule is that your army and your people will no longer be under attack. Even if they have to live under an oppressive government, they are still *not* going to be subjected to mass murder in the way that Jewish people were during the Holocaust.

It seems to me that Zelenskyy will just use whatever tragic event he can with the intention of targeting his specific audience with it. This is obviously because he wants to get something out of them (e.g military equipment, financial aid, etc.) but it's so incredibly disingenuous. I think his thoughts on the Holocaust in particular are testament to how so many former Soviet (yes, I know it doesn't exist now but the mentality still does) Jews still view the Holocaust. I know that many in Ukraine and in other former Soviet States do recognize the horror for what it was...there are some who just don't though. I see Zelenskyy as more of a Ukrainian nationalist than as someone whose great-grandparents perished because they were Jews. His grandfather and other family members were allowed by the Soviets to join the Soviet Army.

In Ukraine, because of a combination of Soviet policies and Ukrainian nationalism, there historically hasn't been that much openness about the Holocaust and how Jewish people were slaughtered en masse simply for being Jews. They were told that all people in Eastern Europe suffered, and that the Nazis killed everyone. They were made to believe, or at least say they believed, that there was nothing unique to Jewish suffering. I think if Zelenskyy had a greater awareness and didn't prioritize nationalism over basic historical realities, he could never have used the Holocaust as a comparison to what is presently happening in Ukraine. It's genuinely beyond comprehension that he did.

Back to the wider point I am making though, it isn't right or fair to go to other nations and bring up unfortunate events they have had in recent history just to get your own way.

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EarthlingWise

Indeed, nothing tragic is happening in Ukraine, right?

SW-User

@EarthlingWise That's not what I said. I said that it's wrong to compare it to the Holocaust...is that something you disagree with?

I also said that it's unfair to use tragic and unfortunate events from other countries. That is because it shows a lack of regard and real empathy for the people and the countries affected by these events. He is just using them to further his political agenda. If you think that is morally acceptable, please explain why.

EarthlingWise

@SW-User "further his political agenda" ? There's a war going on, young people sacrificing their lives for their children to stay free, indeed they remind me of the brave resistants during WWII, and Putin is nothing but a Russian fascist.
No morality at all among his supporters. Just pieces of s***.

SW-User

@EarthlingWise Riiight, so you can't answer my question then. In that case I will presume that you do think that this war is comparable to the Holocaust, and will leave this discourse with the knowledge that you are an ignorant FR (using initials only).

EarthlingWise

@SW-User I don't have to wait for millions of people to die to see the evil in the Russian project.

And I'm not the only one, among human beings:

“From prejudice to hatred to violence to murder, the paths are very short,” said Karl Freller, director of the Bavarian Memorial Foundation, to an audience of more than 500 at the Holocaust memorial site where the Nazi concentration camp Flossenbürg once stood. The crowd, including six survivors of the camp, had gathered in the German state of Bavaria on April 24, the 77th anniversary of the camp’s liberation. During a moment of silence honoring the roughly 30,000 people who died at Flossenbürg, attendees also remembered two Holocaust survivors killed during Russia’s invasion of Ukraine: Boris Romantschenko and Vanda Semyonovna Obiedkova.

The invasion loomed large over the commemoration—an unsurprising shadow given the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who have sought refuge in Germany since the conflict began, as well as Russian autocrat Vladimir Putin’s distortions of World War II history as a justification for his warmongering. He’s spoken of a quest to “demilitarize and de-Nazify” .

SW-User

@EarthlingWise "Russian project"?

This is nothing but a proxy war. If you're trying to say that it is following the same path as the Holocaust, you are a disgrace.

EarthlingWise

@SW-User Cool, people are not really dying then. Enough of this.

SW-User

@EarthlingWise I never said they weren't dying. I'm not trying to diminish their suffering but am highlighting that it is not comparable to the Holocaust. For instance, if Zelenskyy wanted to he could surrender and that would stop the deaths. That wasn't possible during the Holocaust though, because nothing you did as a Jew mattered.

LegendofPeza · 61-69, M

@SW-User 'This is nothing but a proxy war.'

This is just more nonsense out of your mouth. Unfortunately for you , the provenance of the positions you take and the talking points you parrot , are obvious to those of us with more than just a passing interest in the conflict.

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LegendofPeza · 61-69, M

@SW-User 'It IS a proxy war that is being fueled by ultra-nationalism.' - You just double down on this bullshit without any idea of what you're talking about.

And my contention with you is that you keep repeating mistruths and propaganda.

You also keep trying to discredit Zelensky by saying he has no right to reference the Holocaust against his own people's suffering , whilst doing the exact same thing yourself by calling Ukranians Nazis.

Can you explain why Israel doesn't share your outrage if the comparison is so egregious ? Or perhaps you agree with Sergey Lavrov that the worst anti-semites are Jews themselves ?

SW-User

@LegendofPeza I said that because it is a proxy war between Russia and the West. It is not inaccurate to say that it is being fueled by ultra-nationalism either. At the very least, it is being fueled by nationalism. That is something you can't really deny because all wars can be attributed to nationalism in some way. If Ukraine wasn't nationalistic, you could argue that they would have no problem becoming Russian or that it would be much less of an issue. If it was a choice between being bombed or becoming Russian, I would happily become Russian...they aren't choosing that route though, because of nationalism. As I have said to other people, they aren't facing an existential threat and Zelenskyy is being presented with choices. They aren't desirable choices but they are choices nonetheless.

And my contention with you is that you keep repeating mistruths and propaganda

What mistruths and propaganda have I quoted? It isn't propaganda that there are Nazis in Ukraine. I know Russia has antisemites as well, but I am not talking about them. Ukraine has an issue with Nazis to the extent that they have what is essentially their own regiment. I question why you feel the need to deny that the Azov regiment are Nazis.

You also keep trying to discredit Zelensky by saying he has no right to reference the Holocaust against his own people's suffering , whilst doing the exact same thing yourself by calling Ukranians Nazis.

Clearly you are very unaware of this, but his Holocaust comparison drew A LOT of criticism from Israel. People acknowledge that Ukrainians are suffering because people do suffer in wars, but it is absolutely wrong to compare that to the Holocaust.

Here's some articles for you to inform yourself with, comrade ignorov:

[1.] https://www.voanews.com/amp/israelis-reject-zelenskyy-s-holocaust-comparisons-/6494518.html

[2.] https://www.newsweek.com/zelensky-sparks-indignation-israel-infuriating-holocaust-comparison-1689850

[3.] https://jweekly.com/2022/03/21/in-appeal-to-israel-zelensky-invokes-the-final-solution-you-cannot-mediate-between-good-and-evil/

[4.]
https://www.opindia.com/2022/03/israelis-slam-zelenskyy-for-comparing-russian-war-to-the-holocaust/

[5.]
https://forward.com/opinion/485228/zelenskyy-jewish-hero-but-ukraine-has-complicated-nazi-past/

[6.] https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy/1647854971-israeli-lawmaker-zelensky-speech-borderline-holocaust-denial

LegendofPeza · 61-69, M

@SW-User @exotic We can all cherry pick articles that share our bias to bolster an assertion. It's a shame for you that othe ones you chose to best support your claims of widespread criticism actually reference only 'several lawmakers'. Indeed in the very first one we find this ;

"Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett took a more moderate position, saying that while the comparison is not appropriate, he understands Zelenskyy’s pain. - i.e. the official position of the Israeli Govt.

Re: Your proxy war / ultra nationalism nonsense and this particular comment ; " If Ukraine wasn't nationalistic, you could argue that they would have no problem becoming Russian or that it would be much less of an issue."

This is simply stupid beyond words. You are actually saying , again , that Ukraine should just subjugate themselves to the invaders rather than allowing themselves to be painted as nationalists. wtaf

I've already spoke to you about the evolution of Azov since 2014 but you still persist in calling them all Nazis. You won't listen to me but if you want some learned information about Azov , you might try this ;

https://krytyka.com/en/articles/too-much-ado-about-ukrainian-nationalists-the-azov-movement-and-the-war-in-ukraine

SW-User

@LegendofPeza 🤣 That article is fucking hilarious.

It's like, "the Azov regiment who were Nazis have undergone much transformation and are suddenly no longer Nazis since the war broke out...let's all hail the Azov regiment and their non-Nazi beliefs!"

You think Russia is full of propaganda...Ukraine is exactly the same. Also if you read the articles I linked properly you will see that Bennett made it abundantly clear that he strongly disapproved of what Zelenskyy said.

I personally believe that it is forbidden to equate the Holocaust to anything - Naftali Bennett March 2022.

To add to the historical context, it's laughable that Zelenskyy thinks that Israel should treat Ukrainians as they treated Jewish people in the Holocaust. They'd be begging for Putin if Israel did that.

LegendofPeza · 61-69, M

@SW-User You didn't even read it.

SW-User

@LegendofPeza Yeah, I did. Do you really think that Azov aren't still far-right extremists? Or did you just agree with them to begin with?