You can’t tell me that the whole anti Israel thing has nothing to do with antisemitism when

@Dignaga as opposed to the right that were never Antisemites... except for those pesky Nazis, Volkisch movements, Frei Corps, Fascists and Monarchists?

@basilfawlty89 Ikr, I was reading this and thinking "wait till you'll read about how they felt about them at right instead"

@basilfawlty89 The US right hasn't been monarchial since the Continental Congress.

See, the US was already a democracy before Revolutionary France developed the Left vs Right dictonomy. What is Left and Right in Europe usually didn't correspond very well with what was Left and Right in the US. Both the Nazis and the Communists, the Anarchists and the Socialists all came out of later far left French socialist movements from the early 19th century. The Anarchist, Marxist spilt came before the Nazis-Marxist Split. Hitler was a Marxist (documented party commisar in the Bavarian SSR), hesvily borrowed from Marxist-Leninism, heavily critiqued Marxist-Leninism in trying to bring Germans over from Marxist Internationalism into his German Ethnic Socialist Volk. Fuck, Lenin was more Capitalistic in his New Economic Policy than Hitler was in state controlled capitalism, which was a state that controlled all the "private" actions of "free industries", in much the same way the Chinese Communist Party controls large Chinese businesses with party members embedded in the management of businesses. In the US NIRA was as close we came to that economic model.

The Nazis are throughly a leftist movement. We already had the Left vs Right divide in the US at the time, and hitler borrowed heavily from the US prewar left on topics like The Square Deal, Eugenics and Euthanasia, and arguments fkr imperial expansion for living space for the german volk.

It's pure leftist ideology. Some ideas like imperialism did die out, but alot remains on the left. Fuck, alot of leftist still wear Hugo Boss and Chanel. They were Nazis. Rural conservative farmers don't wear that shit.

@Dignaga lol, that's a load of waffle, proof by verbosity isn't proof. Writing me your thesis means jack if it's wrong.

The left is for workers ownership of the means of production, internationalism, against strict gender roles, against traditionalism, against militarism.

The Nazis were for privatisation,, nationalism, strict gender roles, traditionalism and militarism.

Hence the only rational way to define Nazis are far right.

And your lovely rural conservatives are often Klan members. Nazis get along with them.

@basilfawlty89 These are the folk that unironically watch/repost this:


Change my mind

@Elessar Mussolini built his ideas out of the Free State of Fiume, which was far left.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_of_Fiume

He even had the leftist hippy dictator of it, Gabriele D’Annunzio as a Italian fascist deputy (till Mussolinj pushed him out a window).

This is Gabriele D'Annunzio:



He was a silly leftist fop. He built his state around the principles of Free Love, heavy drug use, art and a constitution of the ubermensche and the principles of music. Mussolini adopted much of this at a time when Hitler was still a artist/ Bavarian SSR commissar for a Marxist state in Germany.

It's by American standards a leftist movement, out hippies descend from it. Our Nazis at New Bern (not Neo Nazis, actual Nazis, they are descendants from the old Nazis embassy in Washington DC) follow it. If you saw the TV Show The Man In The High Castle, whenever you saw Nazis having free live orgies and doing drugs and talking about being the higher race, those are liberal concepts. It's very well documented.

Nazis were a socialistic movement. It split from Marxist Leninism, similar to how Anarchism split from Marxism earlier on. And how it all comes from French Socialist Communalism in the early 19th century. US already had a left-right split prior to the French Recolution, where the european concept derives from.

@basilfawlty89 "If" it is wrong. Emphasis on "If". I'm right.

@Dignaga no. You're literally wrong. Again Argumentum ad Verbosim is not a valid argument, as your whole premise is flawed.

You can word salad all you like. There's a reason why political scientists by consensus group Nazis as the far right.

@Dignaga D'Annunzio isn't really popular among left-wingers. Also right wingers more often than not don't live by what they dictate; the Hungarian anti-gay ultra-Christian MEP caught during the lockdown fleeting from a 22-men orgy through the window isn't the first and certainly won't be the last example of it happening.

Mussolini is far right, people who support Mussolini in the modern era are all far right, Mussolini's ideals are 1:1 those of the far right (Trump, Putin, Orbàn, Salvini, Meloni - the latter being the president of the party born from the ashes of the MSI, that was founded by former fascists and defined itself post-fascist)

Your argument is no more and no less deranged than saying that Jesus loves fracking, or that he would be pro-2A, or other shít that only the yanks for some reason have the courage of defending while sober lol

@Elessar D'Annunzio isn't embraced by hardly anyone anymore because the Fascist movement today, like the KKK with the confederacy, likes to play with model toy soldiers making historical reenactments on tabletops with flags and pagentry instead of deep diving into their history. And I'm typically okay with them being ignorant, unless they get on my nerves in a philosophy or history debate then I remind them.

Thing is, they do carry on most of his ideas, when in groups. They aren't completely devoid of intellectuals who deep dive into their history, and they never stopped with the anti-christian, pro-ubermensch free love, heavy drug use, make you own system of values (and they don't even make their own values, they froze circa 1940s and still ape it out today).

The Free State of Fiume is when the fascists first put ideas into practice. You find them splattered across the left. Only good thing I can say about D'Annunzio is he wasn't much of a anti-semite and didn't like Hitler, but that's largely due to his interpretation of Nietzsche. Hitler also read Nietzsche, was a better student of his but hated the Jews (and a good theory is because he met the philosopher Wittgenstein in their primary school, I can dig up some research videos on youtube about that meeting).

I myself am basically a "I Like Ike, Captain American" kind of thinker. I was very careful in picking my political party, took decades. The Prohibition Party took northern conservative ideals, was pro abolitionist, was the first feminist party, fought for civil rights, pro-family, self improvement and seld control, but also never embraced the leftist wave. I'm also not a republican because they did support segregation, not nearly to the degree democrats did and still do (their districts are highly racist and segregated, it's inhumane), but they did so.

Thinkers like Pol Pot took the ideals of the post war French Communist Party and put them into practice. The French like to forget this.

It's more than just left vs right politics too. I have a way harder time with Hindus trying to convince them under the Vedic religion, Beef Eating was highly encouraged. They always scream lieseven when I make direct quotes from their own holy texts.... like I made a time machine and rewrote it. Alot of Buddhist refuse to believe the Buddha died from eating Pork. It takes forever to convince them. It's not just those religions either. Just takes time to do cultic deprogramming. The Nazis very much are a creature of the left. Nietzsche hoped to be a german conservative messiah but it was always leftist movements who embraced him. One of the great ironies of history. But I don't like Nietzsche (I'm a conservative) so it isn't something I'm in a rush to rectify.

D'Annunzio is embedded in the heart of the DNA of the fascist movement. You try to remove it, not only do the fascist disappear, but the modern leftist movements of europe and the US. It's that deeply rooted. And he doesn't even come close to being the worst of them.

@Dignaga um...once again, wading throigh your waffle shows you know nothing of the left. The Old Left didn't like the idea of a Nietzschean elite. The Old Left was influenced by Hegel and Feuerstein, not Nietzsche.

The modern left is influenced by Kropotkin, Sankara, Popper and Chomsky. Not to mention Bookchin.

The latter two are ethnic Jewish people.

@Dignaga You're under the impression that "unconventional" love defines left vs right, in reality you'll find as many queer, homosexuals and bisexuals among rigtwingers than you'll find among left-winger. The only difference is that the former stay in the closet and want it to be an elitist thing whereas the latter want to remove the taboo associated to it after two millennia of monotheistic societal regression.

What defines left/right is the economy, or if you want the progressive (left) / conservative (center) /regressive (right) axis, and fascisti in the past just like fascists in the modern era very much aligns at (far) right using all the aforementioned criteria.

Also 100% of the historians classify fascism and Nazism (and consequently, neofascism and neonazism) as far-right movements. Indeed, if you leaned left during the 1930-1940s you would've been sent to a death camp.