@Burnley123 Don't underestimate Gaza's ties through Iran to Russia. More fronts will open before this is over. And make no mistake, it is the authoritarian powers of the world fighting the democratic forces of the world.
@Burnley123 Only if you consider the Israel/Palestine front. In Ukraine, Russia is involved directly and they're giving more than mere hints they won't stop there. In the Pacific, China may open one (more likely several) new fronts as well.
@Elessar Then you would have to ask who is provoking the war. Have you seen the way US military bases encircle China? Its not a good look for the Chinese. Also, there is a fair chance this Ukraine/Russia war would not have happened in NATO had not expanded east. Like @Burnley123 says, there are no good sides here.
Korea: us troops against USSR proxy. Vietnam: us troops against USSR proxy Afghanistan: USSR troops against (what was then an American proxy.
USSR/Russia and USA troops have never ever (officially at least) engaged each other directly in armed conflict. It's an unwritten rule of the geopolitical duel. If that even changed, I would worry about things going nuclear: literally and figuratively.
@Burnley123 Israel is clearly going too far. No serious or thoughtful person can deny that, I think we also went too far in the global war on terror. The line in war is always messy. So I am not defending Israel here.
BUT, if we assess the sides in the Israel-Gaza conflict, we have to be honest. On one side you have a government that has offered a two state solution to the other many times. A nation where Muslims, Christians, and Jews live harmoniously. A nation with an elected government, elected freely by Muslims, Christians, and Jews. On the other side we have a government that has suspended all democratic institutions. A government that denies it's neighbor the right to exist. A government that diverts huge funding intended to help it's people into terror activities.
Yes, Israel is going too far. I cannot defend their action of the last weeks, but these two sides are not equal. Not by a long shot.
@Elessar No, these are not the first fronts, they are just the latest fronts. To trace the beginnings of WWIII we would need to go back to the 1st and 2nd Chechan wars, the Russian-Georgian war, and the first Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014. Maybe even back to Transnistria. This is a conflict between the authoritarian powers of the world and those who seek democracy and liberty.
@Ozymandiaz Indeed, [b]past[/b] is they keyword. Expansionism in most countries is a remnant of the past, in Russia and China they're the present day situation.
No country surrounding them wants that shìt to spread to their own territory, and every country surrounding them is free to take the autonomous decision of prioritizing their own security, and that's how you get western bases and NATO members in eastern Europe and Asia.
In fact you won't see me defending the Iraq war. Coherently, I'm no fan of Russia doing the same sort of shìt (or actually even worse) in Ukraine.
@Elessar I would disagree, as I pointed out, expansion these days comes from creating economic empires. Clandestine organisations work in the shadows to overthrow governments that are not open to the West's interests.
I wasn't suggesting you supported the war in Iraq I was merely highlighting the fact that no one has any moral superiority here. And just because something is in the [b]past[/b] for you doesn't mean that it is so easily dismissed by others. Especially those stilling living with the impact of past transgressions.
@Ozymandiaz Yeah but [b]territorial[/b] expansionism is what NATO is meant to defend against, and what those neighboring countries are concerned with, not economic. Western countries aren't expanding territorially so you don't get, say, Russian bases in Mexico because the Mexicans get afraid of an U.S. expansion southwards.
Besides, economic expansionism is something they do too, arguably China is the biggest player worldwide.
Relatively to the Russo-Ukrainian front, Ukraine is in a hella better moral position than Russia. Considering that it's apparent "fault" is seeking to enter an anti-Russian defensive alliance *after* having been partially invaded by Russia in 2014.
@Elessar Its not economic expansion though is it? plomo o plate? by any metric, the Chinese economic expansion has been relatively benign compared to how the West handles business. The US, who is the defecto leader of the West The USA has bombed the following countries since 1945: China (1945-46 & 1950-53), Korea (1950-53), Guatemala (1954 & 1960), Indonesia (1958), Cuba (1959-60), Congo (1964), Peru (1965), Laos (1964-73), Vietnam (1961-73), Cambodia (1969-70), Guatemala (1967-69), Grenada (1983), Libya (1986), El Salvador & Nicaragua (1980's), Panama (1989), Iraq (1991-99), Sudan (1998), Afghanistan (1998), Yugoslavia (1999). None of these bombing campaigns led to the establishment of humane democracies in the countries involved. (cut and paste the last list)
Furthermore, I don't disagree with your point on Ukraine. I have a lot of problems with bigger countries annexing parts of smaller countries.
The problem I have is with the moral superiority some people have about these issues. It is far too binary and evangelical for my liking.
@sarabee1995 This is fiction and that is all I can say. I know a labour councilor who has worked with Palestinian activists and has been there. She says she would be too scared to go there now.
Ten years ago, she visited Israel and the Muslim member of their group was taken at customs for aggressive interrogation. Because he was a UK citizen, they could call the British embassy. The staff member huffed and said "ah, his name's Muhammed, this happens all the time. I'll put in a call and if he's not out in an hour, I'll come down." He was released belut only because he had a British passport.
On a bus over there, a Palestinian.child was taken out for questioning by Israeli soldiers. Someone in their party suggested they go out for a smoke to keep an eye on what was happening. They boy was harassed a bit and then released. Back in the bus, his teary eyed parents thanked the foreign visitors for potentially saving him from serious harm.
Yes, this is anecdotal evidence but also matches with statistics and the current political situation. Israel is an apartheid state and the the actual lived experience of Palestinians is worse than people of colour in apartheid South Africa. Most Israeli civilians think that Israel had not used enough firepower in Gaza. Settlements expand I'm the west Bank while this is going on. All of this is underreported but on public record
@Burnley123 I have had that treatment in Israel. Pulled into a room in the airport asked to take of items of clothing and questioned for an hour or so about where I was staying and who I visited. The place is an ethnocentric little apartheid state and anyone who believes it's a shining light for democracy in the Middle East doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.
@BlueGreenGrey So, I will provide you with the list of countries bombed by the US since the end of WWII. I will also provide you with a map of US bases surrounding China to help you comprehend the threat from the US felt by these countries. And after this, if you cannot comprehend why these countries feel threatened I cant really help you 🤷
@Ozymandiaz It was telling in a press briefing a few years ago that Obama could not keep track of how many countries the US was bombing on his watch alone.
